All of your work is amazing and so is Desiree’s but there is something about this episode that has become one of my favorites. I feel like you could do a whole series on this! Also, I love Desiree’s laugh. It always makes me smile.
I really appreciated the nuanced conversation around the 'ally' identity. I once got blocked from a feminist page because the author was praising a particular man as a wonderful feminist, and I brought receipts showing how he really behaves when he thinks no one's paying attention. The page author didn't want to hear that her buddy wasn't blanketly safe and wonderful, and so she banned me.
Just because someone is nice to one individual doesn't make them a safe person.
There's so many gems in here, but the one at the end, "you're worth it, but you haven't done the work to earn access." Wow. I've felt that, I've tried to convey it, but never had the words before. Desiree's framing of that is so powerful and beautiful and gave me a way to reconcile those reactions within myself.
I also really appreciated the point at the end about remembering your own journey, that you weren't always this person you are now --
this is very tangential, but it reminds me of a conversation in grad school in a Women's Studies class where we discussing what it would look like to have finally achieved social justice. People were saying things like, "well, there would be true equality." Or, "no one would be oppressed." The professor was like, yeah, I don't think that's actually achievable. And we had a moment of collective shock because this was someone we knew was really committed to those ideals, not just in the classroom but in her activism, too. And she followed it up explaining, even if you achieved some kind of utopian society, there would still be someone who was marginalized, someone who was oppressed. And the point isn't in the achievement, it's in the process. It's in the process of trying to reach that point is where you start to find justice.
That lesson has stayed with me the rest of my life. There's something about that idea of remembering who you were before you got to that point and accepting that other people are on their own journey, too. It doesn't mean the harmful things they do or say are ok, but it does mean they are worthy of learning from their mistakes, too. That really resonated with me. Thank you.
I love reading you both and have for some time. Is there anyway to get a transcript of the podcast? As a busy reproductive psychiatrist taking care of patients and advocating for women's health, I don't really have time to listen to podcasts. Just thought I'd ask!!
Of course! The transcript is already up there. It may not be visible on the app, if that's how you read/listen. To access the transcript, navigate to the Web page. Toward the top right, under the photo and player, is a “transcript" tab. Lmk if you need help finding it
I think this is the best podcast I’ve ever listened to!! Desiree is so thoughtful and helpful. This is a really helpful listen. I feel empowered to make good-faith mistakes in a way I didn’t realize I needed to be.
I have been hesitant to reach out to some of my black colleagues whom I really like and respect because I’m afraid of being disrespectful somehow. I can maybe be braver about that thanks to this conversation.
I loved this episode! Please do more! The part about white women and their inability to be vulnerable with each other really hit home, thank you for bringing this to light.
I really liked this interview and listening to Desiree. It made me feel better about giving people (like my husband) a chance to change. I think most white men have no motivation or reason to change unless the people in their lives ask it of them. I think the reason I am here is to educate myself on how to have these conversations about equality. I'm like most white women where I do most of the house hold chores. I am making progress.
I listened to this a second time and I wanted to make another comment because I loved this discussion so much. I have always felt that white women have both helped push our equality forward and held it back.
Also, I agree that white women are exhausting as we/they are always competing against each other. I noticed this when I was in high school. I never had too many close female friendships in high school because I didn't want a toxic friendship. This competition really just tears us all down, but they are all too busy or blind to see it. I would rather have no friends than a fake one that competes with me over who has the best such and such. I have found better female friends after I left college and entered the workforce. I work in the engineering field and have found more like minded women in that area of work. I will say that I don't see many minority women in the engineering field where I live. I know of one Hispanic woman.
I also think the reason it's so hard to turn many right wing women is because of fear. You are going against everything they have ever known. They are so focused on their perfect lives and perfect families that telling them anything different is difficult for them to hear. It think Desiree is correct in that you have to give these women the chance to change gradually. Its just difficult for them to change. These women like order and comfort.
I love listening to Desiree whenever she is on Zawn’s podcast and I was subscribing to Desiree but was trying to get less emails and was unsubscribing to a lot of Substack emails. I need to go back in and subscribe and just change the delivery to my email
But I wanted to put this out to readers… to show me to the piece about Charlie and Taylor or Tyler? I’m Assuming Charlie Kirk but who is the person referenced? So many great pieces of written work and podcasts to listen so little time!
I thought it was high per gah me so I was confused when Desiree said hyper gammy so I looked it up and I guess both are acceptable? Maybe like ideology has two pronunciations (also clitoris).
Anyway, I really enjoyed the conversation, especially about the demand for monoculture.
It's difficult to know what to say because every time I listen to Zawn's podcasts I always think "this is great". But I can't just repeat myself, I do feel my English teachers with "but why is it great?"
I don't always have the words to say why, but I massively appreciate this on many levels.
I've started following Desireé now, had only heard of her before. Brilliant to hear perspectives from more feminists especially non white ones. Very important.
I'm absolutely sure I used to perform White feminism years ago. Not proud. However always growing, and it's thanks to people like Desireé and Zawn and ensuring that I think about aspects that aren't easy.
Enjoyed having to think about what is an community. I feel like that's very relevant to my life, in different ways in the past, present and future.
My first comment I wrote yesterday was supposed to be on the other Desireé one about community. I didn't realise there was another one. Subsequently listened to this one, just this morning.
And yet again amazing.
It was a lot to take in. Thanks Desireé for the breath reminders! Yes.
Yes it can be hard to listen when you are being citisized (I can't spell today), BUT it's so important.
Did I get defensive? Yeah a little bit.
Did I switch it off in anger? Nope.
Definitely not expecting a medal or a cookie for this. I'm just typing my thoughts.
You've given me some things to ponder on, and to sit with. And "sit" I will, whilst acknowledging that I cause harm as a white woman, but also saving this one as a listen again.
This is one of those that for the first listen, I realise I have work to do, but that I need to listen again to absorb it a bit more because the first listen had so many new things for me.
It also put words into my head that I wasn't able to voice before. I had a vague feeling but now I realise that I was socialised as a white woman, and with other white women, and it's OK for me to admit that I may not be a safe space for women of colour. But that I also hope I can be better. But I don't expect to be trusted, just simply by me claiming to be an intersectional feminist.
Apologies if this is waffle.
Sometimes when I get started in boosting engagement for the podcast, I then go on and on. But that's because it's a huge topic and I have much work!
This podcast gave me a lot to think about and has helped me refine / redefine some internal narratives. Thank you!
Thank you for listening and sitting with it all
All of your work is amazing and so is Desiree’s but there is something about this episode that has become one of my favorites. I feel like you could do a whole series on this! Also, I love Desiree’s laugh. It always makes me smile.
Awwwww thank you!!!! 😊
I really appreciated the nuanced conversation around the 'ally' identity. I once got blocked from a feminist page because the author was praising a particular man as a wonderful feminist, and I brought receipts showing how he really behaves when he thinks no one's paying attention. The page author didn't want to hear that her buddy wasn't blanketly safe and wonderful, and so she banned me.
Just because someone is nice to one individual doesn't make them a safe person.
It’s not always easier to hear but if we are going to find true solidarity we have to be honest
So happy to see Desiree back on the pod. I listened this morning while getting ready for work. ^_^
I love talking with Zawn she’s a fave person in my life
There's so many gems in here, but the one at the end, "you're worth it, but you haven't done the work to earn access." Wow. I've felt that, I've tried to convey it, but never had the words before. Desiree's framing of that is so powerful and beautiful and gave me a way to reconcile those reactions within myself.
I also really appreciated the point at the end about remembering your own journey, that you weren't always this person you are now --
this is very tangential, but it reminds me of a conversation in grad school in a Women's Studies class where we discussing what it would look like to have finally achieved social justice. People were saying things like, "well, there would be true equality." Or, "no one would be oppressed." The professor was like, yeah, I don't think that's actually achievable. And we had a moment of collective shock because this was someone we knew was really committed to those ideals, not just in the classroom but in her activism, too. And she followed it up explaining, even if you achieved some kind of utopian society, there would still be someone who was marginalized, someone who was oppressed. And the point isn't in the achievement, it's in the process. It's in the process of trying to reach that point is where you start to find justice.
That lesson has stayed with me the rest of my life. There's something about that idea of remembering who you were before you got to that point and accepting that other people are on their own journey, too. It doesn't mean the harmful things they do or say are ok, but it does mean they are worthy of learning from their mistakes, too. That really resonated with me. Thank you.
This comment warmed my soul. Thank you for taking the time out to not only digest our conversation but truly metabolize it 💕
Thank you so much, you and Zawn both, for taking the time to share this conversation. It has stayed with me so much since first listening to it.
I love reading you both and have for some time. Is there anyway to get a transcript of the podcast? As a busy reproductive psychiatrist taking care of patients and advocating for women's health, I don't really have time to listen to podcasts. Just thought I'd ask!!
Of course! The transcript is already up there. It may not be visible on the app, if that's how you read/listen. To access the transcript, navigate to the Web page. Toward the top right, under the photo and player, is a “transcript" tab. Lmk if you need help finding it
I think this is the best podcast I’ve ever listened to!! Desiree is so thoughtful and helpful. This is a really helpful listen. I feel empowered to make good-faith mistakes in a way I didn’t realize I needed to be.
I have been hesitant to reach out to some of my black colleagues whom I really like and respect because I’m afraid of being disrespectful somehow. I can maybe be braver about that thanks to this conversation.
Thank you for sharing your experience of me, it is always good to hear and I’m so glad it helped you in various ways
I loved this episode! Please do more! The part about white women and their inability to be vulnerable with each other really hit home, thank you for bringing this to light.
I would love to do more! Maybe Zawn and I will have a more regular conversation
I really liked this interview and listening to Desiree. It made me feel better about giving people (like my husband) a chance to change. I think most white men have no motivation or reason to change unless the people in their lives ask it of them. I think the reason I am here is to educate myself on how to have these conversations about equality. I'm like most white women where I do most of the house hold chores. I am making progress.
I listened to this a second time and I wanted to make another comment because I loved this discussion so much. I have always felt that white women have both helped push our equality forward and held it back.
Also, I agree that white women are exhausting as we/they are always competing against each other. I noticed this when I was in high school. I never had too many close female friendships in high school because I didn't want a toxic friendship. This competition really just tears us all down, but they are all too busy or blind to see it. I would rather have no friends than a fake one that competes with me over who has the best such and such. I have found better female friends after I left college and entered the workforce. I work in the engineering field and have found more like minded women in that area of work. I will say that I don't see many minority women in the engineering field where I live. I know of one Hispanic woman.
I also think the reason it's so hard to turn many right wing women is because of fear. You are going against everything they have ever known. They are so focused on their perfect lives and perfect families that telling them anything different is difficult for them to hear. It think Desiree is correct in that you have to give these women the chance to change gradually. Its just difficult for them to change. These women like order and comfort.
I love listening to Desiree whenever she is on Zawn’s podcast and I was subscribing to Desiree but was trying to get less emails and was unsubscribing to a lot of Substack emails. I need to go back in and subscribe and just change the delivery to my email
But I wanted to put this out to readers… to show me to the piece about Charlie and Taylor or Tyler? I’m Assuming Charlie Kirk but who is the person referenced? So many great pieces of written work and podcasts to listen so little time!
I thought she was talking about Fight Club.
I thought it was high per gah me so I was confused when Desiree said hyper gammy so I looked it up and I guess both are acceptable? Maybe like ideology has two pronunciations (also clitoris).
Anyway, I really enjoyed the conversation, especially about the demand for monoculture.
😆 I read this like whaaaaaat??? Yes it’s like tomato tomato ❤️
It's difficult to know what to say because every time I listen to Zawn's podcasts I always think "this is great". But I can't just repeat myself, I do feel my English teachers with "but why is it great?"
I don't always have the words to say why, but I massively appreciate this on many levels.
I've started following Desireé now, had only heard of her before. Brilliant to hear perspectives from more feminists especially non white ones. Very important.
I'm absolutely sure I used to perform White feminism years ago. Not proud. However always growing, and it's thanks to people like Desireé and Zawn and ensuring that I think about aspects that aren't easy.
Enjoyed having to think about what is an community. I feel like that's very relevant to my life, in different ways in the past, present and future.
Love it, love it, love it.
Thanks.
My first comment I wrote yesterday was supposed to be on the other Desireé one about community. I didn't realise there was another one. Subsequently listened to this one, just this morning.
And yet again amazing.
It was a lot to take in. Thanks Desireé for the breath reminders! Yes.
Yes it can be hard to listen when you are being citisized (I can't spell today), BUT it's so important.
Did I get defensive? Yeah a little bit.
Did I switch it off in anger? Nope.
Definitely not expecting a medal or a cookie for this. I'm just typing my thoughts.
You've given me some things to ponder on, and to sit with. And "sit" I will, whilst acknowledging that I cause harm as a white woman, but also saving this one as a listen again.
This is one of those that for the first listen, I realise I have work to do, but that I need to listen again to absorb it a bit more because the first listen had so many new things for me.
It also put words into my head that I wasn't able to voice before. I had a vague feeling but now I realise that I was socialised as a white woman, and with other white women, and it's OK for me to admit that I may not be a safe space for women of colour. But that I also hope I can be better. But I don't expect to be trusted, just simply by me claiming to be an intersectional feminist.
Apologies if this is waffle.
Sometimes when I get started in boosting engagement for the podcast, I then go on and on. But that's because it's a huge topic and I have much work!
Thanks again.