Insulting a child like this is actionable emotional abuse in most states and when you add in the sexual comments (“you’re asking to be raped”) it becomes sexual abuse of a minor child. The daughter should record the instances of this behavior and collect witnesses and report the father to child protective services. She doesn’t need to wait to have evidence to report, but since it’s a contentious divorce situation, having written / recorded evidence will help. It’s better if someone other than the mother reports, because everyone has decided that mothers lie about men abusing their children in order to punish fathers (the illogic of this would take several hundred words to work through) and dismiss it out of hand. The daughter can also report the abuse to a mandated reporter like a teacher, school counselor, nurse or doctor and they will make the report if she doesn’t want to or in addition to her own report or the report of witnesses.
Depending on her location and how School Districting works there, mom MAY be able to get full custody, have the daughter live with her, and retain her registration in her current school. She would need to talk to someone in her area familiar with school districting, but unless she has already done so, I wouldn't dismiss out-of-hand the possibility of Daughter coming to live with her (so long as it is physically feasible to get the daughter to school-- either driving her there, having her take public transit, or getting her a car if she is old enough). It also may be possible to get a custody order that states that mom has sole custody and decision-making, dad has Supervised Visits only, and "for the purpose of school enrollment only, the daughter's Primary Residence is designated as father's address."
I think mom should at least talk to a lawyer in her area to see if any of this is possible.
If not, I advise the daughter to get as vicious as she safely can. She lives with this man at least half the time. Whether she is consciously aware of it or not, she knows exactly where his insecurities are, and she should absolutely take "the nuclear option" when returning his insults. Find the thing that he is MOST insecure about, say the cruelest thing she can think of about it, make sure there are witnesses who hear her, and encourage them to join in.
For example, if he says to her that her haircut is ugly or whatever in front of people, she can say something like "hey has anyone else ever noticed that dad is seriously balding? Is it just me? Aunt Tracy, dad's going bald, right? Like he definitely is losing his hair? I'm not just making that up?" Or if he says she's "asking to be raped," something along the lines of "wow you sure do seem to spend a lot of time thinking about me having sex. That is WEIRD. Isn't that weird to anyone else? I feel like a normal guy wouldn't think about his teenage daughter's vagina this much, y'know... Uncle Jim, do you spend a lot of time thinking about teenagers' vaginas??" Say "teenager's vagina" a LOT. Make it Awkward.
If he's saying these things in front of the same people regularly, maybe mom can ask those people to HELP daughter embarrass him. So the next time he's around that group and says something insulting, a whole other person starts in at him about "wow, Tom, what a weird thing to say. I know you're really having trouble with YOUR weight, but that's no reason to talk to a teenage girl that way" or "Yikes, Tom, I can't believe you're really talking about your daughter's vagina here, in our family dinner. Yuck." Or just ask them to openly disagree with him. If he says "that t-shirt is gonna get you raped," just say something like "the only thing that causes rape is rapists. Lots of rapists think inappropriate things about how women dress or look. Just saying." If he says her haircut is ugly, have them say "I think it's cute. It reminds me of Jenna Ortega" or "Wow Tom, I didn't hear anyone ask you, but since we're talking about it, she's allowed to have any hair she wants."
If mom/daughter can get other people committed to providing the backlash against him, they may be at less risk of him retaliating against Daughter when she is alone with him.
My mother was physically abusive to me and it only stopped when I hit back. It doesn’t matter if it’s physical or emotional, sometimes it’s the only way to get abuse to stop. This is the same for my brother.
Mother and daughter should look into open enrollment options. Some school districts even those top rated public schools where people are willing to lie about the address to get into have policies where a student can graduate the school they started if they move out of district.
She can still attend her school and continue to be enrolled even while refusing to visit the father. Of course, he may try to sabotage this as abusers will continue try to maintain control of the situation. She should check with state laws about visitation. I refused to visit my father after I turned 16 years old. My nieces and nephews have also done this during their teens simply because visiting the non-custodial parent interfered with their activities and social life. I have heard some states will allow police to get involved to force even a 17 year old teen to visit their father so state law and precedence needs to be investigated.
Just a though - - She probably has smartphone and TikTok. I wonder if she could pull out her phone and subtly record the verbal abuse with the camera pointed down, so dad doesn't see. She has the option of keeping her face and her dad's off camera.. But when she's had enough, telling him to check out the account and ask if he wants a her to post a face reveal. Maybe hearing his insults played back, recorded, would even cause him to realize what a piece of shit he is. I'd do this while at mom's house.
The daughter can also fill up her schedule with clubs and things that she enjoys to do outside her house and away from the father. If she likes school and her friends, spend more time with them. Volunteer, study at the library, play an instrument, join a band or chorus, start or join a feminist organization for teens, join cheer dance practice, anything to stay away from the abusive father, and it will look great for her college admissions.
Echoing two things (from a wealth of experience with emotional abuse to a teen daughter, and being a survivor myself):
--"hit" him back (1)
and
--look into redistricting rights with lawyer (2)
(1) Every time he makes a comment, shut that MF down, publicly as often as she can, and tell him to shut the fuck up. If she is physically safe in doing so. I agree that the concept of showing him she "has his number" and won't be pushed around is best policy. Always say an emphatic "NO" however she can to this particular way he is communicating.
(2)Expect absolutely no protection from the law, family court, child protective, or anything. In my experience with DV in the legal system, these are failing and possibly worse/more dangerous situations. I second Shaun A's comments to see how to look into districting could work, but I would never advise someone with an emotional abuser to attempt to gain sole custody. Working on being diplomatic, mom may be more successful in getting a mild adjustment or "pass" for daughter to attend the district while spending slightly less time with dad, but not "zero" time.
Keep gathering stories and ideas!! We women rely on each other. Someone might have a method that worked which you can try--women are innovative and resourceful and great at finding ways to wriggle out of this dumb crap, or outsmart a dickhead guy. Trust your gut & your daughter's on what methods feel like they will or will not work.
As someone who previously worked in a (California) school district and handled interdistrict transfer hearings, I encourage this mom to read the interdistrict policies of the district. There are many reasons it might be in the best interest of a child to attend a school outside of their own district or boundary. Reporting the dadhole's abuse could be a reason, but it would indeed trigger a CPS report, which mom and daughter would need to decide if that's what they want.
A much simpler reason, if daughter is at least in 11th grade and has attended the same high school all three years, is that she's moving in with mom and wants to finish out at the same school. Our district encouraged the best possible learning environment for a student, which includes comfort and established relationships.
For the record, I also strongly support daughter responding in kind when dadhole abuses her. She is going to have to deal with him until she cuts him out of her life - which, granted, doesn’t sound far off - and the sooner she is able to assertive and simply reject his abuse, the better.
Fist up, middle finger out, standing in solidarity with this daughter and mom.
My daughter deals with horrible manipulation from her dad. She’s 14, he is a master manipulator. She is a very smart, witty and strong willed young lady. However, the way in which her father uses and abused his power often keeps her stuck. If she throws back, he takes her phone until she apologizes. He’s had a hold on me and my life and has to have his way. He just has to. He thrives off argument and debate. He’s the type that forces her to do all kinds of ridiculous things, love bombs her just enough to make her feel guilty for leaving him. How ironic. She wouldn’t even tell her doctor why she was depressed because she’s afraid of her dad finding out. She doesn’t see any way to escape his abuse. She refuses therapy for the same reason. She still feels bad for him because she’s confused. She wants to live with me full time but anything she does to stand against him, he will find a way to make her life miserable until she tells him what he wants to hear. Then, he will hold her to it, lecture her repeatedly until she completely shuts down and then the cycle repeats. You can imagine how horrible he is/was to me.
It’s a nightmare. He pulled her out of school for a year to another state. Then decided he wanted to stay. She and I were not on board. He put her in an online program so she could travel back and forth, and she’s spent her entire 8th grade year stuck with her parents, no social life, school or friends. Everyone’s gone their own ways and she’s displaced.
He booked a trip for her to go to Europe with him for TWO MONTHS. She does get the experience of seeing the world, but she is 14 and stuck with her abusive father all day, every day for two whole months. She and I text throughout each day, and majority of the time it’s some completely ridiculous story of what he’s putting her through. Often messages include “I’m gonna kms” (kill myself) Now granted we both use the term jokingly. She won’t do that. She know I got her. We’re extremely close and just trying to figure out the best way to get her into a better situation where he doesn’t have as much power. I’ve started to teach her what abuse is, what it looks like, how it’s used by men, how her father is abusing her. All she really thought abuse was , was hitting and rape. I’m showing her that this is not ok.
He’s stealing herself away from her. He’s so consumed with what everyone else thinks that I don’t even think he’s in touch with his heart or soul. It’s all about appearances. It’s all about who you have to be bc xyz, why you have to be that way and what will happen if you aren’t. She gets reprimanded and lectured constantly, she’s always so stressed out around him that she’s showing signs of damage, as a result of abuse. He ruined everything she enjoyed. Music and soccer... she doesn’t want to do anything because he embarrasses her, puts her down, makes her miserable the entire time and doesn’t let her just enjoy and be a kid.
I decided to get a lawyer, I’m enrolling her in a high school in my area that’s close enough to the area he plans to move back and insists she will be going to school. I went no contact with him recently after 15 years of his bs. I just cannot take one more text message or phone call from that pos.
I remind her that she does have power, she does have a choice and to know that and consider that as she continues with him. I know she loves him bc yes, he’s her dad. I care for him too, but unfortunately he will not stop driving everyone crazy. He just wants to fight to the bitter end why his way is the right and best way. I lost power a long time ago with him. Taking legal action is my only solution with him. I’ve let him make all of the decisions and tried to kiss his a$$ to avoid conflict, but I cannot continue to watch my daughter suffer. Coming from an abusive household, I know the effects of going through this type of abuse leads to escaping through poor choices. I need to save my child. I’m finally in a position financially and beyond to make a case for myself and I’ve built myself strong enough to take him on.
I told her that she can love him and still walk away. That she should never tolerate abuse from someone no matter who it is and that it’s very difficult but she’s strong and wise and she has to be able to stick up for herself without feeling afraid.
While I can go on for days, I’m here to say it doesn’t get better if you talk back. In many cases it gets worse and she will get blamed for being the problem child even more. Whether or not these dads have some good intention or some valid points, to go about it in a way that only leaves scars, is not something we want for our daughters. It’s the worst feeling to see your own daughter stuck in an abusive cycle with no escape. And yes, while the system is flawed, you have to find the loopholes. Society still enables this behavior bc they think kids these days have no discipline and are all doomed, entitled and lost.
Insulting a child like this is actionable emotional abuse in most states and when you add in the sexual comments (“you’re asking to be raped”) it becomes sexual abuse of a minor child. The daughter should record the instances of this behavior and collect witnesses and report the father to child protective services. She doesn’t need to wait to have evidence to report, but since it’s a contentious divorce situation, having written / recorded evidence will help. It’s better if someone other than the mother reports, because everyone has decided that mothers lie about men abusing their children in order to punish fathers (the illogic of this would take several hundred words to work through) and dismiss it out of hand. The daughter can also report the abuse to a mandated reporter like a teacher, school counselor, nurse or doctor and they will make the report if she doesn’t want to or in addition to her own report or the report of witnesses.
Depending on her location and how School Districting works there, mom MAY be able to get full custody, have the daughter live with her, and retain her registration in her current school. She would need to talk to someone in her area familiar with school districting, but unless she has already done so, I wouldn't dismiss out-of-hand the possibility of Daughter coming to live with her (so long as it is physically feasible to get the daughter to school-- either driving her there, having her take public transit, or getting her a car if she is old enough). It also may be possible to get a custody order that states that mom has sole custody and decision-making, dad has Supervised Visits only, and "for the purpose of school enrollment only, the daughter's Primary Residence is designated as father's address."
I think mom should at least talk to a lawyer in her area to see if any of this is possible.
If not, I advise the daughter to get as vicious as she safely can. She lives with this man at least half the time. Whether she is consciously aware of it or not, she knows exactly where his insecurities are, and she should absolutely take "the nuclear option" when returning his insults. Find the thing that he is MOST insecure about, say the cruelest thing she can think of about it, make sure there are witnesses who hear her, and encourage them to join in.
For example, if he says to her that her haircut is ugly or whatever in front of people, she can say something like "hey has anyone else ever noticed that dad is seriously balding? Is it just me? Aunt Tracy, dad's going bald, right? Like he definitely is losing his hair? I'm not just making that up?" Or if he says she's "asking to be raped," something along the lines of "wow you sure do seem to spend a lot of time thinking about me having sex. That is WEIRD. Isn't that weird to anyone else? I feel like a normal guy wouldn't think about his teenage daughter's vagina this much, y'know... Uncle Jim, do you spend a lot of time thinking about teenagers' vaginas??" Say "teenager's vagina" a LOT. Make it Awkward.
If he's saying these things in front of the same people regularly, maybe mom can ask those people to HELP daughter embarrass him. So the next time he's around that group and says something insulting, a whole other person starts in at him about "wow, Tom, what a weird thing to say. I know you're really having trouble with YOUR weight, but that's no reason to talk to a teenage girl that way" or "Yikes, Tom, I can't believe you're really talking about your daughter's vagina here, in our family dinner. Yuck." Or just ask them to openly disagree with him. If he says "that t-shirt is gonna get you raped," just say something like "the only thing that causes rape is rapists. Lots of rapists think inappropriate things about how women dress or look. Just saying." If he says her haircut is ugly, have them say "I think it's cute. It reminds me of Jenna Ortega" or "Wow Tom, I didn't hear anyone ask you, but since we're talking about it, she's allowed to have any hair she wants."
If mom/daughter can get other people committed to providing the backlash against him, they may be at less risk of him retaliating against Daughter when she is alone with him.
My mother was physically abusive to me and it only stopped when I hit back. It doesn’t matter if it’s physical or emotional, sometimes it’s the only way to get abuse to stop. This is the same for my brother.
Mother and daughter should look into open enrollment options. Some school districts even those top rated public schools where people are willing to lie about the address to get into have policies where a student can graduate the school they started if they move out of district.
She can still attend her school and continue to be enrolled even while refusing to visit the father. Of course, he may try to sabotage this as abusers will continue try to maintain control of the situation. She should check with state laws about visitation. I refused to visit my father after I turned 16 years old. My nieces and nephews have also done this during their teens simply because visiting the non-custodial parent interfered with their activities and social life. I have heard some states will allow police to get involved to force even a 17 year old teen to visit their father so state law and precedence needs to be investigated.
Just a though - - She probably has smartphone and TikTok. I wonder if she could pull out her phone and subtly record the verbal abuse with the camera pointed down, so dad doesn't see. She has the option of keeping her face and her dad's off camera.. But when she's had enough, telling him to check out the account and ask if he wants a her to post a face reveal. Maybe hearing his insults played back, recorded, would even cause him to realize what a piece of shit he is. I'd do this while at mom's house.
The daughter can also fill up her schedule with clubs and things that she enjoys to do outside her house and away from the father. If she likes school and her friends, spend more time with them. Volunteer, study at the library, play an instrument, join a band or chorus, start or join a feminist organization for teens, join cheer dance practice, anything to stay away from the abusive father, and it will look great for her college admissions.
Echoing two things (from a wealth of experience with emotional abuse to a teen daughter, and being a survivor myself):
--"hit" him back (1)
and
--look into redistricting rights with lawyer (2)
(1) Every time he makes a comment, shut that MF down, publicly as often as she can, and tell him to shut the fuck up. If she is physically safe in doing so. I agree that the concept of showing him she "has his number" and won't be pushed around is best policy. Always say an emphatic "NO" however she can to this particular way he is communicating.
(2)Expect absolutely no protection from the law, family court, child protective, or anything. In my experience with DV in the legal system, these are failing and possibly worse/more dangerous situations. I second Shaun A's comments to see how to look into districting could work, but I would never advise someone with an emotional abuser to attempt to gain sole custody. Working on being diplomatic, mom may be more successful in getting a mild adjustment or "pass" for daughter to attend the district while spending slightly less time with dad, but not "zero" time.
Keep gathering stories and ideas!! We women rely on each other. Someone might have a method that worked which you can try--women are innovative and resourceful and great at finding ways to wriggle out of this dumb crap, or outsmart a dickhead guy. Trust your gut & your daughter's on what methods feel like they will or will not work.
As someone who previously worked in a (California) school district and handled interdistrict transfer hearings, I encourage this mom to read the interdistrict policies of the district. There are many reasons it might be in the best interest of a child to attend a school outside of their own district or boundary. Reporting the dadhole's abuse could be a reason, but it would indeed trigger a CPS report, which mom and daughter would need to decide if that's what they want.
A much simpler reason, if daughter is at least in 11th grade and has attended the same high school all three years, is that she's moving in with mom and wants to finish out at the same school. Our district encouraged the best possible learning environment for a student, which includes comfort and established relationships.
For the record, I also strongly support daughter responding in kind when dadhole abuses her. She is going to have to deal with him until she cuts him out of her life - which, granted, doesn’t sound far off - and the sooner she is able to assertive and simply reject his abuse, the better.
Fist up, middle finger out, standing in solidarity with this daughter and mom.
My daughter deals with horrible manipulation from her dad. She’s 14, he is a master manipulator. She is a very smart, witty and strong willed young lady. However, the way in which her father uses and abused his power often keeps her stuck. If she throws back, he takes her phone until she apologizes. He’s had a hold on me and my life and has to have his way. He just has to. He thrives off argument and debate. He’s the type that forces her to do all kinds of ridiculous things, love bombs her just enough to make her feel guilty for leaving him. How ironic. She wouldn’t even tell her doctor why she was depressed because she’s afraid of her dad finding out. She doesn’t see any way to escape his abuse. She refuses therapy for the same reason. She still feels bad for him because she’s confused. She wants to live with me full time but anything she does to stand against him, he will find a way to make her life miserable until she tells him what he wants to hear. Then, he will hold her to it, lecture her repeatedly until she completely shuts down and then the cycle repeats. You can imagine how horrible he is/was to me.
It’s a nightmare. He pulled her out of school for a year to another state. Then decided he wanted to stay. She and I were not on board. He put her in an online program so she could travel back and forth, and she’s spent her entire 8th grade year stuck with her parents, no social life, school or friends. Everyone’s gone their own ways and she’s displaced.
He booked a trip for her to go to Europe with him for TWO MONTHS. She does get the experience of seeing the world, but she is 14 and stuck with her abusive father all day, every day for two whole months. She and I text throughout each day, and majority of the time it’s some completely ridiculous story of what he’s putting her through. Often messages include “I’m gonna kms” (kill myself) Now granted we both use the term jokingly. She won’t do that. She know I got her. We’re extremely close and just trying to figure out the best way to get her into a better situation where he doesn’t have as much power. I’ve started to teach her what abuse is, what it looks like, how it’s used by men, how her father is abusing her. All she really thought abuse was , was hitting and rape. I’m showing her that this is not ok.
He’s stealing herself away from her. He’s so consumed with what everyone else thinks that I don’t even think he’s in touch with his heart or soul. It’s all about appearances. It’s all about who you have to be bc xyz, why you have to be that way and what will happen if you aren’t. She gets reprimanded and lectured constantly, she’s always so stressed out around him that she’s showing signs of damage, as a result of abuse. He ruined everything she enjoyed. Music and soccer... she doesn’t want to do anything because he embarrasses her, puts her down, makes her miserable the entire time and doesn’t let her just enjoy and be a kid.
I decided to get a lawyer, I’m enrolling her in a high school in my area that’s close enough to the area he plans to move back and insists she will be going to school. I went no contact with him recently after 15 years of his bs. I just cannot take one more text message or phone call from that pos.
I remind her that she does have power, she does have a choice and to know that and consider that as she continues with him. I know she loves him bc yes, he’s her dad. I care for him too, but unfortunately he will not stop driving everyone crazy. He just wants to fight to the bitter end why his way is the right and best way. I lost power a long time ago with him. Taking legal action is my only solution with him. I’ve let him make all of the decisions and tried to kiss his a$$ to avoid conflict, but I cannot continue to watch my daughter suffer. Coming from an abusive household, I know the effects of going through this type of abuse leads to escaping through poor choices. I need to save my child. I’m finally in a position financially and beyond to make a case for myself and I’ve built myself strong enough to take him on.
I told her that she can love him and still walk away. That she should never tolerate abuse from someone no matter who it is and that it’s very difficult but she’s strong and wise and she has to be able to stick up for herself without feeling afraid.
While I can go on for days, I’m here to say it doesn’t get better if you talk back. In many cases it gets worse and she will get blamed for being the problem child even more. Whether or not these dads have some good intention or some valid points, to go about it in a way that only leaves scars, is not something we want for our daughters. It’s the worst feeling to see your own daughter stuck in an abusive cycle with no escape. And yes, while the system is flawed, you have to find the loopholes. Society still enables this behavior bc they think kids these days have no discipline and are all doomed, entitled and lost.
They are not.