I will literally always remember how I felt in that moment. It was like my brain detached from itself, jumped into my stomach, and silently screamed since screaming in public would not have been acceptable.
And then to go on to say that it wasn't that bad/painful! It wasn't bad or painful at all TO HIM. This man needs to find every single seat across the entire globe and take them all.
The tragedy of heterosexuality discussion reminded me of my aunt, around the time legalizing gay marriage was being heavily debated, saying facetiously "Why should they get off easy? Let them marry, so they can suffer like the rest of us." (To be clear, she was very much in favor of marriage equality and LGBTQIA rights. Her joke was more about highlighting marriage as this supposedly very special thing when in fact so many straight married couple are miserable.)
In all seriousness, wow, what an amazing episode. I was not familiar with Jane Ward's work, and I'm rushing to get her books and eagerly awaiting her forthcoming one now.
And the Pandemic demonstrating the unpalatable truth beneath the veneer of equality, just yes, yes, yes. I've been saying that so much since 2020. When Roe fell, one of my first thoughts was, well of course. This massive retrenchment in gender rights we just had for the past couple years helped finally kick open the door for this to happen.
As a woman who works primarily with gay men, I found Ward's book, "Not Gay", fascinating and am so excited for this episode! I just started listening and already am blown away by her bio!
I stayed up late listening to this because I could not stop. wonderful insights and great conversation. I can't wait to read this parenting book! I resonated with so much of this interview. thank you!
Oh wow such a revelation that I can draw up a contract with my partner about this. I am a brown woman, who has been seeing a white man, who has 50/50 custody with 2 boys, 6 & 10, for over a year. We live 3hrs away, so it’s allowed us to develop our relationship slowly. My daughter is 25 and I am not interested in becoming a ‘mother’ again. Sure I’ll play and supervise but I don’t want the caring responsibilities. My partner is an active parent and does all the care giving when they’re around, but I know that if we ever live together, more pressure will be on me to take in these roles. I like this contract idea, where I can voice what I want but it being ok if it’s not entirely ‘equal’ Thank you!
It took me three or four listens to finish this interview, which was such a gem. At this immediate reflection, I was trying to think of what’s stuck out to me the most… And it’s the conditioning and choices that we’re faced. I have hopes that future generations of young people can really lean into being wholly themselves first, understanding themselves first, and then choosing to partner up in ways that makes sense to them. But it requires knowing yourself. Knowing yourself requires the conditions to get to know yourself.
So I get curious how can we create that world together?
I listened to a zawn podcast a couple of months ago (may have been a bit longer) where the guest said that no patriarchy exists any longer because women have legal rights and saying things happen under the patriarchy is just an excuse we use - or something along those lines. It just didn’t sit right with me at the time and I want to re-listen to it but I just can’t seem to find the episode. Can someone direct me to which episode it was? Thanks 😊
Ha! I know exactly the podcast of which you speak, and yes, there were MANY problematic assertions. My general approach is to let people share their ideas rather than argue with them, because I just find that uninteresting. She showed up in good faith and I saw no reason to harangue her. But I disagreed with almost everything she said. https://zawn.substack.com/p/whats-wrong-with-men-with-jessa-crispin
I just listened to this episode for the second time. This one really shifted my thinking and gave me some amazing Ahah moments. I am a GenX mom of a 12 yr old GenAlpha who is becoming less and less of a girly-girl as she heads into puberty. She dresses in gender neutral clothes- baggy pants, t-shirts and flannels. She hasn't asked to change her pronouns to they/them and still seems happy with she/her (for now) but many of her female friends are changing their names to more neutral versions (Ava to Avery- Camilla to Cam ect)many of her girl friends already have gender neutral names given by parents who probably didn't want their daughters evaluated on resumes as women because job and pay bias is real for women (her best girlfriends are Elliot and Quinci). I'm happy to support her in any way as she explores her identity during her teen and young adult years. But I have to say that I definitely worry in the back of my mind how she will navigate our culture if she doesn't conform to the binary gender roles. I love that Jane addressed the narrative that my generation was sold- that it's (scary) hard to be queer in our culture. Even though, having lived in big cities for most of my life and have seen wonderful queer community all around me- I still always thought that it could be such a challenging path- not to say that it isn't, but wow, being a straight woman in patriarchy is absolutely heartbreaking and utterly exhausting. Now after 2 awful marriages and other unfulfilling relationships with men, I think she would be lucky to somehow escape all of this. I'm really feeling now why GenZ and Gen Alpha are rejecting the binary- the binary sucks. I am so excited to discover Jane Ward, can't wait to read more of her work! More podcasts with her please!
Omg I looove her book, such a classic!! What an amazing & exciting guest!
Thanks for introducing me to the work of Jane Ward. This discussion was such a pleasure to listen to.
"We had a tear." Sir...sir.
I will literally always remember how I felt in that moment. It was like my brain detached from itself, jumped into my stomach, and silently screamed since screaming in public would not have been acceptable.
How DARE some dude say, "we?"
I know why he dares, but still.
I have had two third degree tears. If my husband said "we got a tear" afterwards he'd be correct, because I would have torn him a new one.
We.
....We.
WE?!?! (Insert "flames on the sides of my face meme).
And then to go on to say that it wasn't that bad/painful! It wasn't bad or painful at all TO HIM. This man needs to find every single seat across the entire globe and take them all.
So excited for this podcast!
The tragedy of heterosexuality discussion reminded me of my aunt, around the time legalizing gay marriage was being heavily debated, saying facetiously "Why should they get off easy? Let them marry, so they can suffer like the rest of us." (To be clear, she was very much in favor of marriage equality and LGBTQIA rights. Her joke was more about highlighting marriage as this supposedly very special thing when in fact so many straight married couple are miserable.)
In all seriousness, wow, what an amazing episode. I was not familiar with Jane Ward's work, and I'm rushing to get her books and eagerly awaiting her forthcoming one now.
And the Pandemic demonstrating the unpalatable truth beneath the veneer of equality, just yes, yes, yes. I've been saying that so much since 2020. When Roe fell, one of my first thoughts was, well of course. This massive retrenchment in gender rights we just had for the past couple years helped finally kick open the door for this to happen.
As a woman who works primarily with gay men, I found Ward's book, "Not Gay", fascinating and am so excited for this episode! I just started listening and already am blown away by her bio!
She is seriously just so cool.
So much potential for future episodes, too! I hope you will have her back on the pod.
I stayed up late listening to this because I could not stop. wonderful insights and great conversation. I can't wait to read this parenting book! I resonated with so much of this interview. thank you!
Loveddd her book. Great guest
Oh wow such a revelation that I can draw up a contract with my partner about this. I am a brown woman, who has been seeing a white man, who has 50/50 custody with 2 boys, 6 & 10, for over a year. We live 3hrs away, so it’s allowed us to develop our relationship slowly. My daughter is 25 and I am not interested in becoming a ‘mother’ again. Sure I’ll play and supervise but I don’t want the caring responsibilities. My partner is an active parent and does all the care giving when they’re around, but I know that if we ever live together, more pressure will be on me to take in these roles. I like this contract idea, where I can voice what I want but it being ok if it’s not entirely ‘equal’ Thank you!
It took me three or four listens to finish this interview, which was such a gem. At this immediate reflection, I was trying to think of what’s stuck out to me the most… And it’s the conditioning and choices that we’re faced. I have hopes that future generations of young people can really lean into being wholly themselves first, understanding themselves first, and then choosing to partner up in ways that makes sense to them. But it requires knowing yourself. Knowing yourself requires the conditions to get to know yourself.
So I get curious how can we create that world together?
I listened to a zawn podcast a couple of months ago (may have been a bit longer) where the guest said that no patriarchy exists any longer because women have legal rights and saying things happen under the patriarchy is just an excuse we use - or something along those lines. It just didn’t sit right with me at the time and I want to re-listen to it but I just can’t seem to find the episode. Can someone direct me to which episode it was? Thanks 😊
Ha! I know exactly the podcast of which you speak, and yes, there were MANY problematic assertions. My general approach is to let people share their ideas rather than argue with them, because I just find that uninteresting. She showed up in good faith and I saw no reason to harangue her. But I disagreed with almost everything she said. https://zawn.substack.com/p/whats-wrong-with-men-with-jessa-crispin
So thrilled to see Jane on the pod. I read her book last year and instantly loved her.
I just listened to this episode for the second time. This one really shifted my thinking and gave me some amazing Ahah moments. I am a GenX mom of a 12 yr old GenAlpha who is becoming less and less of a girly-girl as she heads into puberty. She dresses in gender neutral clothes- baggy pants, t-shirts and flannels. She hasn't asked to change her pronouns to they/them and still seems happy with she/her (for now) but many of her female friends are changing their names to more neutral versions (Ava to Avery- Camilla to Cam ect)many of her girl friends already have gender neutral names given by parents who probably didn't want their daughters evaluated on resumes as women because job and pay bias is real for women (her best girlfriends are Elliot and Quinci). I'm happy to support her in any way as she explores her identity during her teen and young adult years. But I have to say that I definitely worry in the back of my mind how she will navigate our culture if she doesn't conform to the binary gender roles. I love that Jane addressed the narrative that my generation was sold- that it's (scary) hard to be queer in our culture. Even though, having lived in big cities for most of my life and have seen wonderful queer community all around me- I still always thought that it could be such a challenging path- not to say that it isn't, but wow, being a straight woman in patriarchy is absolutely heartbreaking and utterly exhausting. Now after 2 awful marriages and other unfulfilling relationships with men, I think she would be lucky to somehow escape all of this. I'm really feeling now why GenZ and Gen Alpha are rejecting the binary- the binary sucks. I am so excited to discover Jane Ward, can't wait to read more of her work! More podcasts with her please!