I appreciate the reframing so it is clear that the question presupposes that it would be ok to treat women like garbage if it mean the man got sex. We need to be calling out the hidden presuppositions everywhere.
Here are some I've started to do:
"You have to accept the help your husband is willing to give."
-->"What you're saying is that I'm the responsible one and he is an optional helper, and I should be grateful for anything he decides to contribute. What I'm saying is that we are both equally responsible and I reject the idea of holding all the responsibility while he gets far more freedom at my expense AND gets praised for any contributions at all. My time is just as valuable as his and he is just as capable of doing chores adequately and unprompted as I am."
"Men just don't care about that stuff."
--> "What you're saying is that men not wanting to bother with essential chores and caregiving tasks means that they should not have to do them. Given that they are essential, meaning they have to get done, you must be pretty confident that someone else will do them, and we both know that's a woman. You're also suggesting women make up silly fussy ways of doing things for funsies. What does that suggest about women, if they're just inventing work for themselves and then complaining? Isn't it more likely their spouse is lazy?"
"Women have gotten so demanding."
-->"You're suggesting that men were doing enough at some point and women are now escalating their demands arbitrarily. Given the domestic inequity that is uncovered every time the topic is studied, isn't it more likely that men are making too many demands of their overworked partners?"
Zawn, I love your deconstruction of this question. One line that did stick out to me was "I understand that being lonely sucks, and that many men turn to red pill ideology as an act of desperation (this, incidentally, is why feminism needs to offer something more appealing)." Can you say more? I'm so curious what you mean by "why feminism needs to offer something more appealing." I can't recall seeing a column on that topic, but perhaps you are planning to address it in the future. Thank you!
I'm struggling so much with the 2nd sentence of his question. "Despite the dialect (if i speak far right wing you would hate me too), what you say makes lots of sense to me."
Is he basically saying, "even though you speak feminist/bitch, I have been magnanimous enough to actually wade through to find that, huh, you make some good points." UGH. Good luck to this person.
I've been mulling over this question all day (under the assumption that the writer is asking in good faith). I think the writer needs to ask himself if he wants a loving, mutually supportive relationship with a woman, or if he wants a girlfriend for the purpose of increasing his status with other men.
All that red pill bullshit is what some clueless men do to preen and try to climb the hierarchy of other low-quality men.
If you want to impress women, that's a different situation altogether.
It's ok to not want a loving supportive relationship with a high-quality woman, as long as you are honest about it and don't pretend that you are offering a quality relationship. Your relationships aren't likely to last or be very enjoyable, but for some people, the drama of a revolving door of girlfriends is easier to deal with than the work of becoming a quality person who can sustain a quality relationship.
Regarding this: “No one can spend their entire life serving a man and expecting only moderate financial support in return. She will resent you. She will lose sexual interest. Eventually, she’ll hate you. She’ll leave you if she can, and if she can’t, she’ll withdraw as much as possible. You will both be profoundly lonely.“
YES !! That was my marriage. He didn’t care about my happiness. At all. He was completely selfish. I started to hate him & I didn’t even have the words to express that in my head (due to the religious belief system I grew up in, that taught me we aren’t allowed to hate anything). I couldn’t leave. And then I withdrew. I lost my voice. I wasn’t able to speak for the last few years. I repeat: I lost my voice. Completely. I was profoundly lonely. I have no idea if he was, too. Actually, I think he was profoundly lonely before he met me and will always remain profoundly lonely, because he refuses to do any deep diving into himself & choosing to be a better person & thus getting the rewards that deep diving gives us as we heal.
Zawn, I am so grateful for your newsletter(s). Wow. You help me feel less lonely.
Would you please consider writing a newsletter for those of us who, in our late 40s or 50s or 60s left a man after being with him for 20+ years, and are starting a new chapter in life. I would like some hope that despite my excessive health issues I now have, that I can make something of myself in this life and find happiness. Thank you for considering it.
I appreciate the reframing so it is clear that the question presupposes that it would be ok to treat women like garbage if it mean the man got sex. We need to be calling out the hidden presuppositions everywhere.
Here are some I've started to do:
"You have to accept the help your husband is willing to give."
-->"What you're saying is that I'm the responsible one and he is an optional helper, and I should be grateful for anything he decides to contribute. What I'm saying is that we are both equally responsible and I reject the idea of holding all the responsibility while he gets far more freedom at my expense AND gets praised for any contributions at all. My time is just as valuable as his and he is just as capable of doing chores adequately and unprompted as I am."
"Men just don't care about that stuff."
--> "What you're saying is that men not wanting to bother with essential chores and caregiving tasks means that they should not have to do them. Given that they are essential, meaning they have to get done, you must be pretty confident that someone else will do them, and we both know that's a woman. You're also suggesting women make up silly fussy ways of doing things for funsies. What does that suggest about women, if they're just inventing work for themselves and then complaining? Isn't it more likely their spouse is lazy?"
"Women have gotten so demanding."
-->"You're suggesting that men were doing enough at some point and women are now escalating their demands arbitrarily. Given the domestic inequity that is uncovered every time the topic is studied, isn't it more likely that men are making too many demands of their overworked partners?"
Zawn, I love your deconstruction of this question. One line that did stick out to me was "I understand that being lonely sucks, and that many men turn to red pill ideology as an act of desperation (this, incidentally, is why feminism needs to offer something more appealing)." Can you say more? I'm so curious what you mean by "why feminism needs to offer something more appealing." I can't recall seeing a column on that topic, but perhaps you are planning to address it in the future. Thank you!
I'm struggling so much with the 2nd sentence of his question. "Despite the dialect (if i speak far right wing you would hate me too), what you say makes lots of sense to me."
Is he basically saying, "even though you speak feminist/bitch, I have been magnanimous enough to actually wade through to find that, huh, you make some good points." UGH. Good luck to this person.
I've been mulling over this question all day (under the assumption that the writer is asking in good faith). I think the writer needs to ask himself if he wants a loving, mutually supportive relationship with a woman, or if he wants a girlfriend for the purpose of increasing his status with other men.
All that red pill bullshit is what some clueless men do to preen and try to climb the hierarchy of other low-quality men.
If you want to impress women, that's a different situation altogether.
It's ok to not want a loving supportive relationship with a high-quality woman, as long as you are honest about it and don't pretend that you are offering a quality relationship. Your relationships aren't likely to last or be very enjoyable, but for some people, the drama of a revolving door of girlfriends is easier to deal with than the work of becoming a quality person who can sustain a quality relationship.
Regarding this: “No one can spend their entire life serving a man and expecting only moderate financial support in return. She will resent you. She will lose sexual interest. Eventually, she’ll hate you. She’ll leave you if she can, and if she can’t, she’ll withdraw as much as possible. You will both be profoundly lonely.“
YES !! That was my marriage. He didn’t care about my happiness. At all. He was completely selfish. I started to hate him & I didn’t even have the words to express that in my head (due to the religious belief system I grew up in, that taught me we aren’t allowed to hate anything). I couldn’t leave. And then I withdrew. I lost my voice. I wasn’t able to speak for the last few years. I repeat: I lost my voice. Completely. I was profoundly lonely. I have no idea if he was, too. Actually, I think he was profoundly lonely before he met me and will always remain profoundly lonely, because he refuses to do any deep diving into himself & choosing to be a better person & thus getting the rewards that deep diving gives us as we heal.
Zawn, I am so grateful for your newsletter(s). Wow. You help me feel less lonely.
Would you please consider writing a newsletter for those of us who, in our late 40s or 50s or 60s left a man after being with him for 20+ years, and are starting a new chapter in life. I would like some hope that despite my excessive health issues I now have, that I can make something of myself in this life and find happiness. Thank you for considering it.