Why pleasure and rest are vital to activism, how white women reflect and replicate white masculinity, building a truly inclusive feminist movement, and so much more.
Awoman! Awareness, Accountability and Responsibility. First I wanna say, Jamaican and Scottish by way of the Bougie Down as well. I agree with so much, but disagree with a few things? LOL! Can I be very blunt and transparent here… neither one of you OR me are exempt from these interlocking systems of oppression whether it’s or from your son, husband or dad. And IMHO—NO, women are never as violent politically or personally as men— please invite me to the next cookout, or maybe not !!
I am not trying to high jack this podcast’s comments— but a couple things: 1. My attention span is actually 3.5 seconds and for me to be able to listen to this podcast for an hour going
into 90 minutes means it is absolutely soothing and amazing. It makes my heart sing because I am a stone cold misandrist, lol. This is definitely a workout, listen to. 2. I love how you ladies are unabashedly yourselves and cursing up a storm. You are my ppl. ;)
I hear all this and all I can think about is Dworkin, 1978 —-she said supremacists will always create a culture or subset to hate, ALWAYS.
Yes! It is truly missing especially on the internet. It’s defensiveness. It hits something at the core that hurts. Great end! We have to learn to have and continue respectful and empathetic discourse and dissent. Thank you, ladies. This was a great one!
Please charge the misspelling of hijack to my head and not my heart. Andrea Dworkin was such a treasure gone too soon. I love your mama too, sounds like an amazing woman! 🤎
As a white woman, I am still wrapping my head around "what I was before I was white" and how I can support my children and men in my life to be better, to find where the culture of whiteness and supremacy affects them with compassion. What does that look like in action.
I also have children who are not white bodied. How do I then acknowledge the supremacy and whiteness in myself and support them? What does that look like?
Thank you for asking such important questions about your journey towards understanding and dismantling whiteness and supremacy. It's crucial to recognize that this work is ongoing, reflective, and deeply personal, impacting not only ourselves but also those around us, including our families.
This is going to be a little long for a comment but here goes:
Understanding Your Identity Before Whiteness:
To explore "Who were you before you were white," it's essential to understand that whiteness is a social construct designed to uphold certain power dynamics. This journey starts with delving into your ancestry, cultural roots, and the historical contexts that led your ancestors to adopt a white identity. By uncovering these layers, you can reconnect with aspects of your heritage that existed before the construct of whiteness was imposed.
Supporting Your Family with Compassion: Give white men the same grace Black women
Supporting your family—your children and the men in your life—to recognize where whiteness and supremacy affect them involves fostering a space of compassion and openness. The simplest step you can take is to lead by example. Show that you are committed to this journey of understanding and dismantling whiteness by modeling vulnerability, accountability, and continuous learning. This sets a powerful example for others in your life to follow.
Acknowledging supremacy and whiteness within yourself means being honest about the unearned leverage you've had within these systems and how these systems have shaped your thoughts and behaviors. This involves a process of deep self-reflection and an ongoing commitment to recognize and dismantle these structures within your own life
Supporting children who are not white-bodied requires a nuanced approach that respects their unique experiences and acknowledges the complexities of your identity and theirs. That takes time, support and being in communty with their people as well.
I am going to suggest grabbing my Ebook and begin the journey there. Thanks so much for leaning in and getting curious.
Great interview. I’m glad she mentioned that she doesn’t feel toward men the way some women may feel towards men and that could make her dangerous in other ways. I’m black and she’s black however she’s biracial and in the black community she is considered “a preference.” Think how blonde women are considered the prettiest in the white community. So her interactions with men may have been more favorable due to colorism and texturism her physical look and that she is “mixed” is considered “beautiful” in the black community so she may be overlooking how other women get treated by men which may lead them to dislike men. Other than that she’s great I’m glad she acknowledged that potential blind spot in her perspective.
Hey Denise! Thanks for this feedback. I am deeply aware of that aspect. I am the lightest thing on my daddys side and the darkest on my moms. I was always raised around unambiguosly Black men and women so I am always aware of how colorism, texturism and featurism play into my experience.
I also have very healthy friendships with men and cared fr deeply by them in all the ways with no potential of my paying the price in ass.
I curated my life and communiyt in that way because what is seen as a privilege/prefrence feels very much like a fetish to those who are aware and Im never impressed by men wanting to consume me for their games. Wanting to screw me isnt a flex, men cum in socks... so there is that.
I do recognize that my sheer exsitence based on supremacy culture is dangerous/harmful to Black women/fems the same way white people are to everyone else non white inside of supremacy culture.
Thank you for seeing the whole of my experiences, I apprectiate that.
I could listen to Desirée talk all day. How extraordinary. Please do more podcasts together!! Wowzers.
I also SO appreciated Desirée mentioning Biden’s super racist and genocidal policies. There’s always this fear in the left that you can’t criticise the left because then the right will win! Or well , give the guy a chance, at least he’s trying…
This fucking podcast had me angrily stripping herbs at work - normally a zen task. Angry bc my ideas and understandings were being challenged, which is just the best. I really thought I could outsmart patriarchy but really, turns out, I made a home for it. Thanks for the work, Zawn. Thanks for the work, Desireé.
Ok. This is the first podcast I am listening to and WOW. Just WOW. I am glad this is the FIRST ONE! 🤎🖤
YES! It means so much to me that you like it <3
Whew, CHILD. Don’t cut anything out!
Awoman! Awareness, Accountability and Responsibility. First I wanna say, Jamaican and Scottish by way of the Bougie Down as well. I agree with so much, but disagree with a few things? LOL! Can I be very blunt and transparent here… neither one of you OR me are exempt from these interlocking systems of oppression whether it’s or from your son, husband or dad. And IMHO—NO, women are never as violent politically or personally as men— please invite me to the next cookout, or maybe not !!
You are always invited to ANY cookout I'm having (as long as my husband cooks; my food would probably not appeal).
I’m definitely down to have that convo!
This is deep—— screaming DEEP!! I love the extreme level of awareness you both have! But this is deep—turtles all the way down!!
I am not trying to high jack this podcast’s comments— but a couple things: 1. My attention span is actually 3.5 seconds and for me to be able to listen to this podcast for an hour going
into 90 minutes means it is absolutely soothing and amazing. It makes my heart sing because I am a stone cold misandrist, lol. This is definitely a workout, listen to. 2. I love how you ladies are unabashedly yourselves and cursing up a storm. You are my ppl. ;)
I hear all this and all I can think about is Dworkin, 1978 —-she said supremacists will always create a culture or subset to hate, ALWAYS.
Yes! It is truly missing especially on the internet. It’s defensiveness. It hits something at the core that hurts. Great end! We have to learn to have and continue respectful and empathetic discourse and dissent. Thank you, ladies. This was a great one!
It’s like, we lack a full range of critical thought.
You are not hijacking. The comments section exists for this very purpose.
I love it also that every conversation with you eventually turns to Dworkin.
Please charge the misspelling of hijack to my head and not my heart. Andrea Dworkin was such a treasure gone too soon. I love your mama too, sounds like an amazing woman! 🤎
Zawn, I love love love this podcast. Is there a way to mix it a little higher? I always have to turn the volume all the way up when I listen.
Me too
As a white woman, I am still wrapping my head around "what I was before I was white" and how I can support my children and men in my life to be better, to find where the culture of whiteness and supremacy affects them with compassion. What does that look like in action.
I also have children who are not white bodied. How do I then acknowledge the supremacy and whiteness in myself and support them? What does that look like?
Definitely read Desiree's newsletter. She has a ton of advice on these points
Thank you for asking such important questions about your journey towards understanding and dismantling whiteness and supremacy. It's crucial to recognize that this work is ongoing, reflective, and deeply personal, impacting not only ourselves but also those around us, including our families.
This is going to be a little long for a comment but here goes:
Understanding Your Identity Before Whiteness:
To explore "Who were you before you were white," it's essential to understand that whiteness is a social construct designed to uphold certain power dynamics. This journey starts with delving into your ancestry, cultural roots, and the historical contexts that led your ancestors to adopt a white identity. By uncovering these layers, you can reconnect with aspects of your heritage that existed before the construct of whiteness was imposed.
Supporting Your Family with Compassion: Give white men the same grace Black women
Supporting your family—your children and the men in your life—to recognize where whiteness and supremacy affect them involves fostering a space of compassion and openness. The simplest step you can take is to lead by example. Show that you are committed to this journey of understanding and dismantling whiteness by modeling vulnerability, accountability, and continuous learning. This sets a powerful example for others in your life to follow.
Acknowledging supremacy and whiteness within yourself means being honest about the unearned leverage you've had within these systems and how these systems have shaped your thoughts and behaviors. This involves a process of deep self-reflection and an ongoing commitment to recognize and dismantle these structures within your own life
Supporting children who are not white-bodied requires a nuanced approach that respects their unique experiences and acknowledges the complexities of your identity and theirs. That takes time, support and being in communty with their people as well.
I am going to suggest grabbing my Ebook and begin the journey there. Thanks so much for leaning in and getting curious.
https://desireebstephens.bio/shop/50ea9892-cedb-48de-bf77-65ba4629c70b?pageViewSource=lib_view&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fdesireebstephens.bio%2F&show_back_button=true
This was such an excellent podcast. I got so, so much out of it. Thank you so much Desiree and zawn.
Thank you for taking the time out to listen and let us know.
Great interview. I’m glad she mentioned that she doesn’t feel toward men the way some women may feel towards men and that could make her dangerous in other ways. I’m black and she’s black however she’s biracial and in the black community she is considered “a preference.” Think how blonde women are considered the prettiest in the white community. So her interactions with men may have been more favorable due to colorism and texturism her physical look and that she is “mixed” is considered “beautiful” in the black community so she may be overlooking how other women get treated by men which may lead them to dislike men. Other than that she’s great I’m glad she acknowledged that potential blind spot in her perspective.
Hey Denise! Thanks for this feedback. I am deeply aware of that aspect. I am the lightest thing on my daddys side and the darkest on my moms. I was always raised around unambiguosly Black men and women so I am always aware of how colorism, texturism and featurism play into my experience.
I also have very healthy friendships with men and cared fr deeply by them in all the ways with no potential of my paying the price in ass.
I curated my life and communiyt in that way because what is seen as a privilege/prefrence feels very much like a fetish to those who are aware and Im never impressed by men wanting to consume me for their games. Wanting to screw me isnt a flex, men cum in socks... so there is that.
I do recognize that my sheer exsitence based on supremacy culture is dangerous/harmful to Black women/fems the same way white people are to everyone else non white inside of supremacy culture.
Thank you for seeing the whole of my experiences, I apprectiate that.
I appreciate you. Thank you for your acknowledgment.
I could listen to Desirée talk all day. How extraordinary. Please do more podcasts together!! Wowzers.
I also SO appreciated Desirée mentioning Biden’s super racist and genocidal policies. There’s always this fear in the left that you can’t criticise the left because then the right will win! Or well , give the guy a chance, at least he’s trying…
I’m not from US but did want to randomly share this amazing Australian Muslim comedian who first awakened me to Biden’s previous policies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfXsHbHEQu0&pp=ygUMQWFtZXIgcmFobWFu
His best work is “Reverse Racism” imo. Big topics!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M&pp=ygUUYWFtZXIgcmFobWFuIHJldmVyc2U%3D
Ahhhh thank you so very much! I agree that criticism of the “left” is not advocacy of the right. We are meant to question and hold people accountable
I’m mind blown. 🤯 so many things I’ve not thought of before
So glad wit opened up more for you
This fucking podcast had me angrily stripping herbs at work - normally a zen task. Angry bc my ideas and understandings were being challenged, which is just the best. I really thought I could outsmart patriarchy but really, turns out, I made a home for it. Thanks for the work, Zawn. Thanks for the work, Desireé.
Curious if anyone has read "How the Irish Became White" https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095/ref=sr_1_1?crid=CKFTTM6YVWXL&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.h63R5fUX8qJUHNi9bl7j6QBpGYPtPDERSQxf8txbDE-VtfTrSm7c0paqfV5fGa71mkMwr0BV3YWhcn_DkHjrTbh9g9sLVWhBgN9gYhruGXwYYJJm6YFK1e_UBR1MIXi3SuZLmULeRPjQ-LcuBuIHYOuPdaRSR5SlAxfM1aAF4ZMFqTCdMyk84iDQkswDCEDfxT7zxqnualyc-OMifu7J5Q.x36tWeHMVOcBreq6uTbl3MTm3m9tWzsWhCl65p9mbd8&dib_tag=se&keywords=irish+white&qid=1725676620&sprefix=irish+white%2Caps%2C182&sr=8-1
SO much to think on and (un)learn here. Thank you Desireé and Zawn x