Excellent episode. I really liked the default definition. I will now have that as a mantra in all new acquaintances. I’m not dating again but for letting a man be a friend I will apply it too- default is that you’re a problem.
Really enjoyed listening to this episode. So refreshing to hear this way of thinking and seeing the world from a woman's point of view when trying to cope with the backlash of trying to obtain better treatment from men within intimate relationships. So glad I've found you and your work Zawn!
So much this! I wish that everyone was learning this information and having these conversations from a young age. It would truly make all the difference!
Loved this episode - I could relate to the anecdote about toddler fascination with taking debit cards. My kiddo was very disappointed after first being elated when he got his first library card and discovered it only works for books, not buying snacks :)
As a longtime Dan Savage fan, I really appreciated the nuanced critique of his work, which is valuable and has done a great service in de-stigmatizing and educating people about sexuality. But I agree, he doesn't have a great insight on how a lot of the typical issues for heterosexual couples are threaded through with sexism and abuse. That tension comes up for me in reading his work with so much appreciation but still wishing he brought a more informed view to that area.
And I loved the main topic and the whole podcast - such a refreshing deconstruction of all the issues with the "nice guy" label.
"Abusers never think of themselves as abusive." This one should be written in the sky every single day. Maybe I'll quit my job and fly those planes at the beach with feminist messages on them instead of ads. "He's not really a nice guy" "You work 168 hours per week - he works 40" "Legally half of your husband's money is yours" - you know, light beach reading!
Thanks Zawn and Jeff for the very insightful episode! I loved it and I thoroughly believe that it is on men to prove through their actions that they are well-meaning and "nice".
I wonder if you can talk about m*n and illness at some point - m*n leaving their partners when women get sick, and when m*n get sick getting abusive/more abusive and letting women know it's ok to break up with them then, how to do so and deal with the fallout (e.g. the m*n's friends/family guilt tripping and abusing her for leaving).
One line from the episode has kept echoing in my mind. Jeff's point about it not being that hard for a man to say feminist things. That was truly mind-opening because it made me realize I'd been assuming it took some effort or commitment on their part. That's because it does for women. To be feminist as a woman means inevitably getting pushback and criticism. Also, women don't typically have an incentive to pretend to be feminist. For men, though, even if they get some insults from retrograde guys, they don't have to risk that much and it might actually win them favor with women.
Life has already taught me through hard experience not to accept men's feminist proclamations at face value and instead look at their actions. That point helped reinforce that. And it also made me realize that if I make statements in support of a marginalized group, how little that really risks. How much more critical it is to think about actions I take and how to live those values.
I really appreciated hearing y'all's discussion of Dan Savage. Between the ages of 18 and 33, I was in a relationship with a straight man (my ex and I are the same age) who started reading Dan Savage's column (and then later became a regular Savage Lovecast listener) as a preteen. I know that Dan Savage's advice very much shaped my ex's thinking on relationships. The point that, "one thing I think Dan Savage does get wrong is this whole, you know, he's big on opening up the relationship. This is a gay man talking about a gay man's experience. And he can say, I know what hetero people are like. He might know what hetero men are like. But he doesn't have a fucking clue about what it's like to be a woman. And what it's like to be a woman in a heterosexual relationship. What it's like to be a married woman. He doesn't have a clue because if he did, he wouldn't so flippantly think, oh, we can just open this relationship. He doesn't know what it's like to be a mother with an abusive husband. And so a lot of what he says is valuable, but he's got huge blind spots. And I don't say much of anything about gay relationships because I don't have a clue. And so to pretend that that can be mapped, that the sexual dynamic in a homosexual relationship can be mapped onto our societal clusterfuck of heterosexual marriage, I think he's missing a lot." really blew my mind and is not something that ever occurred to me before. For reference, I'm not a current Savage Lovecast listener, but my ex and I frequently listened to the show together + the idea of being a GGG partner was pretty integral to our conversations about our sex life.
Excellent episode. I really liked the default definition. I will now have that as a mantra in all new acquaintances. I’m not dating again but for letting a man be a friend I will apply it too- default is that you’re a problem.
Really enjoyed listening to this episode. So refreshing to hear this way of thinking and seeing the world from a woman's point of view when trying to cope with the backlash of trying to obtain better treatment from men within intimate relationships. So glad I've found you and your work Zawn!
Game changer for me! ❤️
As a recovering "nice guy," this was very helpful. Thanks!
My biggest gripe about Zawn’s work is that it wasn’t around fifteen years ago. This stuff needs to be taught in school curricula!
So much this! I wish that everyone was learning this information and having these conversations from a young age. It would truly make all the difference!
Loved this episode - I could relate to the anecdote about toddler fascination with taking debit cards. My kiddo was very disappointed after first being elated when he got his first library card and discovered it only works for books, not buying snacks :)
As a longtime Dan Savage fan, I really appreciated the nuanced critique of his work, which is valuable and has done a great service in de-stigmatizing and educating people about sexuality. But I agree, he doesn't have a great insight on how a lot of the typical issues for heterosexual couples are threaded through with sexism and abuse. That tension comes up for me in reading his work with so much appreciation but still wishing he brought a more informed view to that area.
And I loved the main topic and the whole podcast - such a refreshing deconstruction of all the issues with the "nice guy" label.
"Abusers never think of themselves as abusive." This one should be written in the sky every single day. Maybe I'll quit my job and fly those planes at the beach with feminist messages on them instead of ads. "He's not really a nice guy" "You work 168 hours per week - he works 40" "Legally half of your husband's money is yours" - you know, light beach reading!
Really loved this. Excellent
25 years with a misogynistic narcissist, son of a Methodist minister and now I’m a divorced feminist. Praise God for opening my eyes!
Thanks Zawn and Jeff for the very insightful episode! I loved it and I thoroughly believe that it is on men to prove through their actions that they are well-meaning and "nice".
Great episode!
I wonder if you can talk about m*n and illness at some point - m*n leaving their partners when women get sick, and when m*n get sick getting abusive/more abusive and letting women know it's ok to break up with them then, how to do so and deal with the fallout (e.g. the m*n's friends/family guilt tripping and abusing her for leaving).
One line from the episode has kept echoing in my mind. Jeff's point about it not being that hard for a man to say feminist things. That was truly mind-opening because it made me realize I'd been assuming it took some effort or commitment on their part. That's because it does for women. To be feminist as a woman means inevitably getting pushback and criticism. Also, women don't typically have an incentive to pretend to be feminist. For men, though, even if they get some insults from retrograde guys, they don't have to risk that much and it might actually win them favor with women.
Life has already taught me through hard experience not to accept men's feminist proclamations at face value and instead look at their actions. That point helped reinforce that. And it also made me realize that if I make statements in support of a marginalized group, how little that really risks. How much more critical it is to think about actions I take and how to live those values.
I really appreciated hearing y'all's discussion of Dan Savage. Between the ages of 18 and 33, I was in a relationship with a straight man (my ex and I are the same age) who started reading Dan Savage's column (and then later became a regular Savage Lovecast listener) as a preteen. I know that Dan Savage's advice very much shaped my ex's thinking on relationships. The point that, "one thing I think Dan Savage does get wrong is this whole, you know, he's big on opening up the relationship. This is a gay man talking about a gay man's experience. And he can say, I know what hetero people are like. He might know what hetero men are like. But he doesn't have a fucking clue about what it's like to be a woman. And what it's like to be a woman in a heterosexual relationship. What it's like to be a married woman. He doesn't have a clue because if he did, he wouldn't so flippantly think, oh, we can just open this relationship. He doesn't know what it's like to be a mother with an abusive husband. And so a lot of what he says is valuable, but he's got huge blind spots. And I don't say much of anything about gay relationships because I don't have a clue. And so to pretend that that can be mapped, that the sexual dynamic in a homosexual relationship can be mapped onto our societal clusterfuck of heterosexual marriage, I think he's missing a lot." really blew my mind and is not something that ever occurred to me before. For reference, I'm not a current Savage Lovecast listener, but my ex and I frequently listened to the show together + the idea of being a GGG partner was pretty integral to our conversations about our sex life.