Don't get this man out of here, this is my feedback :D
You're both doing great job. Thank you. I'd like Jeff to be even more involved because you know, if a man doesn't say it, it's not true for some men out there. We women know about what's been said. It's the men who should listen to this. It's not about speaking truth.. it's about changing mindset, and it's not an easy task. How to convince someone that they need that, that's art.
I agree with you 100%. I'm not saying center men, but when the listener can hear what a healthy hetero relationship is and Jeff calls out other men, it's pretty fucking great.
Def not center men. But I'd gladly hear from a man's perspective what made him be a good guy actually. This is the source many people would die for :D A good man is a rarity, and this one is approved haha
You know how many men believe that they're the good ones, or if they have a little bit more self-awareness yet they're polluted with manosphere BS abusers who need to explain their abuse, that women like the bad guys (lol). This is very unique knowledge exclusively from a man's brain, to know what happened that he DOESN'T think that way, or if he experienced any friend of his changing his mind, and why.
I'm just curious what's the possibility of mindshift and how many changes can be done without involvement of women's emotional labour.
I think you nailed it - if we took away the shame women feel (and other complex emotions) about “taking too long” to orgasm, the number of women who say they need to orgasm during sex would absolutely go up. And we can absolutely tell when men are losing their patience. Such an important point!!
I recognised some sexual abuse I have been through, this podcast also brought to light sexual abuse I have tolerated because I just thought it was the norm.
This has been my experience, too. I listened to this episode probably 5 times so far. And each time, I feel more and more rage. It is a beautiful rage.
“She Comes First” is NOT a strategy. Orgasms do not guarantee mutual respect, intimacy and conversation, and orgasms can be weaponized and objectified. Removing all goals, including orgasm, and learning how to be mindful for pleasure and emotional and physical connection is the sex education that nobody is getting.
If I can recommend, episode 14, 15, and 16 of Janna Denton Howe’s podcast, y’all would be great guests on each others shows.
I don't think anyone is advocating for orgasms as the sole strategy here, and I'm disappointed to hear that this is what you got from the podcast. People have lots of different sexual goals, and I don't think telling people not to have goals is going to get us any closer to equity. The real issue, as we discussed in great detail, is men's sexual entitlement.
Somehow we are missing each other on this conversation. Your husband referenced “She Comes First”. And entitlement is having expectations/goals. I’m taking issue with anyone claiming that more orgasms could solve equity and entitlement problems. A man making a woman have an orgasm a “goal” is not going to create equity. When a man writes a book that teaches other men “She Comes First” , it is not a relational approach. It’s more men treating women as objects and sex as a performance. I wholeheartedly agree with how you described in the podcast that it’s far more important than men have a conversation with their partners. I hope this makes sense.
I'm not familiar with the book you keep referencing. And neither is Jeff. He was referring to the general principle, which j think offers an imperfect guidepost. It is not entitlement to want to have an orgasm and I will not allow you to shame women on my page in that way. It's fine for you to prefer a different approach, but that does not make other women morally inferior to you or entitled.
“She Comes First” is a book written by a man that advocates giving a woman oral sex to make to her orgasm first. It’s written by a man who is giving blanket advice. And many people cite this book claiming that the main “problem” is lack of orgasms. I’m not shaming orgasms. I’m saying orgasms do not fix all of the other problems like lack of communication, respect or entitlement. I want to delete my comments but I will leave it here in case anyone might benefit from thinking about these topics.
Thank you both so much! This topic is really important. Last year My therapist recommended I read Jessica ghigliotti’s book, “10 things your husband says after he rapes you”. There was quite a bit in her book that reflected my experience.
your podcast speaks to several different audiences and I need to remind myself of that. It is good advice for men to go slowly with sex to make it enjoyable. However, That’s not going to apply to the situation where there has been years of rape, all sex has been coerced and the person who is being coerced wants to get it over with as quickly as possible. in this dynamic you’re going to be shamed and berated for that too. For not wanting foreplay.
Thank you for this. When my husband called me first a “fat ass b*” after I had his child, and then later apologized by saying, “You’re right, I shouldn’t have called you that because I actually left out a letter. You’re a FLAT-ass b*!” I weigh less than 100 pounds. He had NEVER insulted my body before, always told me how beautiful I was, and this is probably what destroyed our marriage along with so many other things. But you’re right, after this, I could never bring myself to sleep with him again. Even when I “tried” to. I couldn’t bring myself to do it.
Don't get this man out of here, this is my feedback :D
You're both doing great job. Thank you. I'd like Jeff to be even more involved because you know, if a man doesn't say it, it's not true for some men out there. We women know about what's been said. It's the men who should listen to this. It's not about speaking truth.. it's about changing mindset, and it's not an easy task. How to convince someone that they need that, that's art.
I agree with you 100%. I'm not saying center men, but when the listener can hear what a healthy hetero relationship is and Jeff calls out other men, it's pretty fucking great.
Def not center men. But I'd gladly hear from a man's perspective what made him be a good guy actually. This is the source many people would die for :D A good man is a rarity, and this one is approved haha
You know how many men believe that they're the good ones, or if they have a little bit more self-awareness yet they're polluted with manosphere BS abusers who need to explain their abuse, that women like the bad guys (lol). This is very unique knowledge exclusively from a man's brain, to know what happened that he DOESN'T think that way, or if he experienced any friend of his changing his mind, and why.
I'm just curious what's the possibility of mindshift and how many changes can be done without involvement of women's emotional labour.
I think you nailed it - if we took away the shame women feel (and other complex emotions) about “taking too long” to orgasm, the number of women who say they need to orgasm during sex would absolutely go up. And we can absolutely tell when men are losing their patience. Such an important point!!
I recognised some sexual abuse I have been through, this podcast also brought to light sexual abuse I have tolerated because I just thought it was the norm.
That’s the absolute kicker, isn’t it? There’s so much abuse women tolerate because society has gaslit us into believing it’s the norm!
This has been my experience, too. I listened to this episode probably 5 times so far. And each time, I feel more and more rage. It is a beautiful rage.
“She Comes First” is NOT a strategy. Orgasms do not guarantee mutual respect, intimacy and conversation, and orgasms can be weaponized and objectified. Removing all goals, including orgasm, and learning how to be mindful for pleasure and emotional and physical connection is the sex education that nobody is getting.
If I can recommend, episode 14, 15, and 16 of Janna Denton Howe’s podcast, y’all would be great guests on each others shows.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/doing-it-together-making-sense-of-low-libido-sex/id1637519892?i=1000585471122
I don't think anyone is advocating for orgasms as the sole strategy here, and I'm disappointed to hear that this is what you got from the podcast. People have lots of different sexual goals, and I don't think telling people not to have goals is going to get us any closer to equity. The real issue, as we discussed in great detail, is men's sexual entitlement.
Somehow we are missing each other on this conversation. Your husband referenced “She Comes First”. And entitlement is having expectations/goals. I’m taking issue with anyone claiming that more orgasms could solve equity and entitlement problems. A man making a woman have an orgasm a “goal” is not going to create equity. When a man writes a book that teaches other men “She Comes First” , it is not a relational approach. It’s more men treating women as objects and sex as a performance. I wholeheartedly agree with how you described in the podcast that it’s far more important than men have a conversation with their partners. I hope this makes sense.
I'm not familiar with the book you keep referencing. And neither is Jeff. He was referring to the general principle, which j think offers an imperfect guidepost. It is not entitlement to want to have an orgasm and I will not allow you to shame women on my page in that way. It's fine for you to prefer a different approach, but that does not make other women morally inferior to you or entitled.
I am not shaming women- I’m really confused that you are interpreting my comments that way.
You say that having sexual goals is entitlement. It is common for women to have sexual goals.
“She Comes First” is a book written by a man that advocates giving a woman oral sex to make to her orgasm first. It’s written by a man who is giving blanket advice. And many people cite this book claiming that the main “problem” is lack of orgasms. I’m not shaming orgasms. I’m saying orgasms do not fix all of the other problems like lack of communication, respect or entitlement. I want to delete my comments but I will leave it here in case anyone might benefit from thinking about these topics.
Another link that explains where I’m coming from:
https://drchelseapage.com/blog/2016/6/8/e-is-for-expectations-how-to-minimize-the-pressures-of-sexual-performance
Thank you both so much! This topic is really important. Last year My therapist recommended I read Jessica ghigliotti’s book, “10 things your husband says after he rapes you”. There was quite a bit in her book that reflected my experience.
your podcast speaks to several different audiences and I need to remind myself of that. It is good advice for men to go slowly with sex to make it enjoyable. However, That’s not going to apply to the situation where there has been years of rape, all sex has been coerced and the person who is being coerced wants to get it over with as quickly as possible. in this dynamic you’re going to be shamed and berated for that too. For not wanting foreplay.
Thank you for this. When my husband called me first a “fat ass b*” after I had his child, and then later apologized by saying, “You’re right, I shouldn’t have called you that because I actually left out a letter. You’re a FLAT-ass b*!” I weigh less than 100 pounds. He had NEVER insulted my body before, always told me how beautiful I was, and this is probably what destroyed our marriage along with so many other things. But you’re right, after this, I could never bring myself to sleep with him again. Even when I “tried” to. I couldn’t bring myself to do it.
Listening to this episode reminded me of this gem of a song :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kttX5GTyJYc