This is so important. The only conversations I recall my mother having with me about sex were shame based, and through the lens that men only use women for sex. I remember one time I came home with a friend, and my mom was watching a Dr. Phil episode about a girl who gave blowjobs to a number of guys. My mom made me sit down with my friend and watch it, so I understood the "ramifications" of blowing guys, who would only be using me. I liked to make out with different guys and she would tell me I would never find a man if I just gave away the store. When I had my first serious boyfriend, she asked me if he told me he loved me. When I responded yes, she told me he likely only said it so I'd sleep with him.
It's really f'ed up my head, and caused me to have a view that men use me for sex, when I am looking for sexual gratification as well. It's also caused me to try to hard to receive male attention and affection. I ended up marrying too young, to someone I should not have married because of the emphasis on finding a husband, not necessarily someone I was compatible with or who treated me well. I had negative views around sex with him, and then when I became more confident and sexually empowered, he began to withhold sex (I think I chose a narcissist due to the way my mother spoke to me and treated me), creating even more issues for me surrounding sex.
Sex positive conversations are so important, and help women establish healthy relationships that transcend the entire relationship, not just the sexual aspect.
I was raised in a religious you-better-wait-till-marriage household too. One thing that helped me was to realize that the whole “you must stay pure because your body belongs to God” stuff is deeply anti-consent. In order to have the agency to say no to sex, you also have to have the power to say yes. In other words, consent works both ways or it doesn’t work at all.
Regarding the part about not wanting your daughters to sleep around: fundamentalist religions tend to cast women in madonna/whore dichotomies. This makes sleeping around always seem like a bad thing. I clearly recall being told that having pre-marital sex would make me “un-holy,” sinful, dirty, etc. But we all make mistakes in life, including when it comes to sex, and making mistakes doesn’t make us bad people. So what if your daughter has sex that later feels like a mistake? Mistakes are not the end of the world! And whether we wait till marriage or have a ton of casual sex, our sexual decisions don’t have to define us.
And of course, men aren't held to the same religious standards about pre-marital sex because there's no risk of obvious evidence (ie, pregnancy) for their behavior.
Urgh in my opinion there’s still plenty of guys out there who just want to have sex and dump the girl and /or ghost her, cease to meet her emotional and relational needs and generally just “be a boy and have fun” (to use a line from Peter Pan) - I.e. not to be held accountable or ever clean up their mistakes. Even if all you want is a casual hookup arrangement, you still have to be able to point out when it’s not working for you, when it’s painful, when you need some aspect of his behaviour to change. The real challenge is how to tell whether a dude is genuine in his attentiveness and responsiveness at the beginning - because so many are SO great at doing and saying all the right things so it’s easy to be fooled. Then they switch off after a while. Emotional labour is the backbone of relationships (casual and otherwise), not the entry fee. But by the time you realise a guy really just wanted to get into your pants, you may be rather emotionally invested. I wish my mum had taught me how to be much more suspicious of even “nice” seeming men rather that thinking the best of them
OMG, I feel like this would be the original letter writer's worst fear. This seems like the answer she didn't want to hear, lol. So any tips on how to spot those kind of guys?
I would be a millionaire if I knew the answer to that lol. Maybe make it mandatory for men to have all dates with you while sitting in a lie detector machine? 😅
On a somewhat related topic, if women collectively went on strike and withdrew from relationships with men entirely, we might be able to do collective bargaining and men’s dependency on women would be laid bare. Mwhahaha (!) Since what men are offering is so sub-par anyway…only really works as a collective endeavour though since if women are always available then some crappy dude will just find another woman to use as an appliance if his woman goes on strike.
Yup although I think it’s men who need this line tattooed to the walls of their skull!! I can’t claim any credit for it though, it comes from a lady posting on the Metafilter epic emotional labour thread called “Where’s My Cut? On unpaid emotional labour” which you can search on Metafilter. A condensed version is here where you might locate this line and it’s corresponding anecdote more easily: http://www.victorkumar.org/uploads/6/1/5/2/61526489/emotional_labor_-_the_metafilter_thread_condensed-.pdf
I was raised evangelical Christian and raised to think of sex as 'the holiest thing, such a gift to give to my husband, how it was created for marriage' blah blah blah and I 'waited' and gosh what a disappointment. Thankfully I've shed the masturbation shame and I get at least pleasure myself to the highest level of pleasure ... Nothing to add on advice , just solidarity with the original poster.
There's this page called 'sex positive families' on Instagram that gives tips for all ages ... they also have a book that's good
For many years, I wished we gave teenage young people a vibrator or dildo to help empower them about finding pleasure and connection with themselves and that they don’t need to rely on another person for pleasure. Also that they are whole and complete as they are. They don’t need anyone else to complete them.
Recently learned that virginity is about female strength, not abstaining from sex. Same root as the word virility.
I learned from a book a long time ago that the act of sex can affect our objectivity, and I found this to be true. It’s also true that biochemically, females feel more bonded as a result of sex and this is an important awareness to realize, no matter the choices they make about their own bodies.
I was taught by a family friend to be prepared, especially to keep myself safe. Much less shame than from other sources.
What sources do you have for the claim that women get more biochemically bonded through sex than men do? This sounds like one of those evangelical claims about women. Do you have any resources to back this up?
Men also produce oxytocin during sex, and there's no evidence that sex bonds women more than men. What we do know is that women tend to lose interest in sex in long-term relationships, while men do not.
I see a link between less interest in sex for women, especially as they are exploited and used for free labor. It’s just not a sex-generative behavior, as you already know. And I’ve also been partnered with men with low sex drives, further illustrating your previous point Zawn.
Sadly, I do not. I read the source years ago, and the book has a decidedly religious outlook. I would not reference it anywhere, if only because of the “age” of the material, but also because my ideas and values have shifted as I’ve grown much older.
I don't know, I've had several FWB or casual situations where I enjoyed the sex, felt genuine fondness and regard for the person but no deeper feelings than that. In some cases, the guy was the one in those instances to feel more deeply and want more of a relationship. I've also had situations where having sex with someone led to deeper feelings than I initially expected, but i think in those situations, there was often some other emotional factor at play.
All to say, I'm not sure it's categorically true that women feel more bonded as a result of sex. I'm cautioning against that message too because I was told much the same thing by my mom and other adult women in my life, I think with good intentions like the writer to protect me from user men, but when I wound up not feeling that, it led to confusion and wondering if there was something wrong with me, which just plays into all the sexist messaging and shaming women are already getting around sexuality. Also, it could unintentionally set up the young person to assume that a strong emotion about the experience or the pleasure felt is actually an emotional bond with the sex partner when maybe that's not the case. I would instead encourage giving the message that sex can bring up a range of feelings, (sometimes very strong emotions, sometimes not. Sometimes long-termfeelings, sometimes short-lived ones) and the person in question is better off checking in to see what feels ok to her and to discount as much as possible the societal messages about what she "should" feel.
We don't allow biological determinism here, because it always upholds the gender status quo. While some unreliable sources claim that women "bond" more, that's an unscientific term and there's no actual scientific evidence supporting it.
I just wanted to input that the conversation around pornography is increasingly important, as children are being exposed to porn at younger ages than ever and many of the scripts played out there (which lean towards the extremes of violence and objectification of women and minorities) are informing teens’ expectations regarding sex. Some resources to tackle this side of the conversation are fightthenewdrug.org and exoduscry.com (strong TW for honest, explicit discussions of sexual abuse, human trafficking, survivor stories, child sexual abuse material, the Pornhub scandal, etc).
It really helped me to define my sexuality through the definitions of orientation like: sapiosexual and demisexual. There are many many different terms for diverse orientations. It has taken me YEARS of deprogramming and continued unlearning of "women are more emotional about sex and men are more physical" blah blah blah. Thank you for deemphasizing biological determinism in this forum, Zawn.
I would also add that ongoing bad sex is a sign of a bad relationship and that you shouldn't put up with it. We all deserve sexually healthy relationships.
This is so important. The only conversations I recall my mother having with me about sex were shame based, and through the lens that men only use women for sex. I remember one time I came home with a friend, and my mom was watching a Dr. Phil episode about a girl who gave blowjobs to a number of guys. My mom made me sit down with my friend and watch it, so I understood the "ramifications" of blowing guys, who would only be using me. I liked to make out with different guys and she would tell me I would never find a man if I just gave away the store. When I had my first serious boyfriend, she asked me if he told me he loved me. When I responded yes, she told me he likely only said it so I'd sleep with him.
It's really f'ed up my head, and caused me to have a view that men use me for sex, when I am looking for sexual gratification as well. It's also caused me to try to hard to receive male attention and affection. I ended up marrying too young, to someone I should not have married because of the emphasis on finding a husband, not necessarily someone I was compatible with or who treated me well. I had negative views around sex with him, and then when I became more confident and sexually empowered, he began to withhold sex (I think I chose a narcissist due to the way my mother spoke to me and treated me), creating even more issues for me surrounding sex.
Sex positive conversations are so important, and help women establish healthy relationships that transcend the entire relationship, not just the sexual aspect.
I was raised in a religious you-better-wait-till-marriage household too. One thing that helped me was to realize that the whole “you must stay pure because your body belongs to God” stuff is deeply anti-consent. In order to have the agency to say no to sex, you also have to have the power to say yes. In other words, consent works both ways or it doesn’t work at all.
Regarding the part about not wanting your daughters to sleep around: fundamentalist religions tend to cast women in madonna/whore dichotomies. This makes sleeping around always seem like a bad thing. I clearly recall being told that having pre-marital sex would make me “un-holy,” sinful, dirty, etc. But we all make mistakes in life, including when it comes to sex, and making mistakes doesn’t make us bad people. So what if your daughter has sex that later feels like a mistake? Mistakes are not the end of the world! And whether we wait till marriage or have a ton of casual sex, our sexual decisions don’t have to define us.
And of course, men aren't held to the same religious standards about pre-marital sex because there's no risk of obvious evidence (ie, pregnancy) for their behavior.
Urgh in my opinion there’s still plenty of guys out there who just want to have sex and dump the girl and /or ghost her, cease to meet her emotional and relational needs and generally just “be a boy and have fun” (to use a line from Peter Pan) - I.e. not to be held accountable or ever clean up their mistakes. Even if all you want is a casual hookup arrangement, you still have to be able to point out when it’s not working for you, when it’s painful, when you need some aspect of his behaviour to change. The real challenge is how to tell whether a dude is genuine in his attentiveness and responsiveness at the beginning - because so many are SO great at doing and saying all the right things so it’s easy to be fooled. Then they switch off after a while. Emotional labour is the backbone of relationships (casual and otherwise), not the entry fee. But by the time you realise a guy really just wanted to get into your pants, you may be rather emotionally invested. I wish my mum had taught me how to be much more suspicious of even “nice” seeming men rather that thinking the best of them
You’re so right! Female sexual empowerment in a patriarchal world is very difficult to achieve IMHO.
OMG, I feel like this would be the original letter writer's worst fear. This seems like the answer she didn't want to hear, lol. So any tips on how to spot those kind of guys?
I would be a millionaire if I knew the answer to that lol. Maybe make it mandatory for men to have all dates with you while sitting in a lie detector machine? 😅
On a somewhat related topic, if women collectively went on strike and withdrew from relationships with men entirely, we might be able to do collective bargaining and men’s dependency on women would be laid bare. Mwhahaha (!) Since what men are offering is so sub-par anyway…only really works as a collective endeavour though since if women are always available then some crappy dude will just find another woman to use as an appliance if his woman goes on strike.
Oh my goodness EMOTIONAL LABOUR IS THE BACKBONE OF RELATIONSHIPS, NOT JUST THE ENTRY FEE. I need this as a tattoo.
Yup although I think it’s men who need this line tattooed to the walls of their skull!! I can’t claim any credit for it though, it comes from a lady posting on the Metafilter epic emotional labour thread called “Where’s My Cut? On unpaid emotional labour” which you can search on Metafilter. A condensed version is here where you might locate this line and it’s corresponding anecdote more easily: http://www.victorkumar.org/uploads/6/1/5/2/61526489/emotional_labor_-_the_metafilter_thread_condensed-.pdf
I was raised evangelical Christian and raised to think of sex as 'the holiest thing, such a gift to give to my husband, how it was created for marriage' blah blah blah and I 'waited' and gosh what a disappointment. Thankfully I've shed the masturbation shame and I get at least pleasure myself to the highest level of pleasure ... Nothing to add on advice , just solidarity with the original poster.
There's this page called 'sex positive families' on Instagram that gives tips for all ages ... they also have a book that's good
Several thoughts:
For many years, I wished we gave teenage young people a vibrator or dildo to help empower them about finding pleasure and connection with themselves and that they don’t need to rely on another person for pleasure. Also that they are whole and complete as they are. They don’t need anyone else to complete them.
Recently learned that virginity is about female strength, not abstaining from sex. Same root as the word virility.
I learned from a book a long time ago that the act of sex can affect our objectivity, and I found this to be true. It’s also true that biochemically, females feel more bonded as a result of sex and this is an important awareness to realize, no matter the choices they make about their own bodies.
I was taught by a family friend to be prepared, especially to keep myself safe. Much less shame than from other sources.
What sources do you have for the claim that women get more biochemically bonded through sex than men do? This sounds like one of those evangelical claims about women. Do you have any resources to back this up?
Men also produce oxytocin during sex, and there's no evidence that sex bonds women more than men. What we do know is that women tend to lose interest in sex in long-term relationships, while men do not.
I see a link between less interest in sex for women, especially as they are exploited and used for free labor. It’s just not a sex-generative behavior, as you already know. And I’ve also been partnered with men with low sex drives, further illustrating your previous point Zawn.
Oops, not quite previous, but coming up very soon.
Sadly, I do not. I read the source years ago, and the book has a decidedly religious outlook. I would not reference it anywhere, if only because of the “age” of the material, but also because my ideas and values have shifted as I’ve grown much older.
I don't know, I've had several FWB or casual situations where I enjoyed the sex, felt genuine fondness and regard for the person but no deeper feelings than that. In some cases, the guy was the one in those instances to feel more deeply and want more of a relationship. I've also had situations where having sex with someone led to deeper feelings than I initially expected, but i think in those situations, there was often some other emotional factor at play.
All to say, I'm not sure it's categorically true that women feel more bonded as a result of sex. I'm cautioning against that message too because I was told much the same thing by my mom and other adult women in my life, I think with good intentions like the writer to protect me from user men, but when I wound up not feeling that, it led to confusion and wondering if there was something wrong with me, which just plays into all the sexist messaging and shaming women are already getting around sexuality. Also, it could unintentionally set up the young person to assume that a strong emotion about the experience or the pleasure felt is actually an emotional bond with the sex partner when maybe that's not the case. I would instead encourage giving the message that sex can bring up a range of feelings, (sometimes very strong emotions, sometimes not. Sometimes long-termfeelings, sometimes short-lived ones) and the person in question is better off checking in to see what feels ok to her and to discount as much as possible the societal messages about what she "should" feel.
Excellent points.
We don't allow biological determinism here, because it always upholds the gender status quo. While some unreliable sources claim that women "bond" more, that's an unscientific term and there's no actual scientific evidence supporting it.
Thank you. I was previously unaware of this. Appreciate the way you help me to stretch my views.
Love this community and how folks engage.
I just wanted to input that the conversation around pornography is increasingly important, as children are being exposed to porn at younger ages than ever and many of the scripts played out there (which lean towards the extremes of violence and objectification of women and minorities) are informing teens’ expectations regarding sex. Some resources to tackle this side of the conversation are fightthenewdrug.org and exoduscry.com (strong TW for honest, explicit discussions of sexual abuse, human trafficking, survivor stories, child sexual abuse material, the Pornhub scandal, etc).
It really helped me to define my sexuality through the definitions of orientation like: sapiosexual and demisexual. There are many many different terms for diverse orientations. It has taken me YEARS of deprogramming and continued unlearning of "women are more emotional about sex and men are more physical" blah blah blah. Thank you for deemphasizing biological determinism in this forum, Zawn.
A great read that I recommend to everyone: Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski.
I would also add that ongoing bad sex is a sign of a bad relationship and that you shouldn't put up with it. We all deserve sexually healthy relationships.