Zawn, I'm wondering how you would give advice if the opposite were true? E.g. a woman says or does something and the man assigns a reason to it that makes sense in his head and paints him as the victim. "You took my special Tupperware without asking, so you must not care about my illness" for example (true story) gaslighting her into thinking did I really mean that when I said/did X? One of the hallmarks of narcissism is assigning harmful intention to people's behavior regardless of their actual intent. I'm not trying to undermine your point, just truly understand the difference, because I know there is one.
Maybe it's about the wider context. It's one thing for someone to do an action this is neutral/understandable, but which bothers their partner, and for them to has it out with the assumption no harm was intended. It's another to have a pattern of one person being rude and refusing to work on their pattern of rudeness, but instead insisting that they need to be coddled instead.
"Using my tupperware this way puts me at risk of a flare-up." "I'm sorry, I didn't realize/remember. What can I do to remedy it?" vs. "You're trying to kill me by using my Tupperware, no nothing you say or do can ever amend for this grievous harm, even though I regularly do far worse to you and refuse to acknowledge it. Please start groveling and servicing me."
Also, some people ONLY have these problems with people they feel they can dominate (wives, kids, employees, etc.). They are able to self-manage at work, with friends, etc. So that's another contextual clue.
Thank you for yet again putting things very clearly. Reading this made me think of: how can we look for behavior instead of talk? Let me elaborate. I feel like I’m conditioned to be fine with talk: if he says he’s going to do better than I should trust that, but I want him to be and do better, not talk better. How can I help myself stay on course and look for better behavior rather than settle with lip service? Any two cents in this? All input welcome.
I felt this in my soul. For a while I got so sick of the empty promises I didn't ask him to do Anything because I was so angry about repeatedly (like once a day) asking him to do the same thing and being told "I will," but he never did.
For a long time I tried not to expect anything.
Now I'm trying to demand more and actually expect it but I'm more often pleasantly surprised when he does any of the household chores.
In other words, I hear you, I understand, I sadly have no advice.
I also tend to give the benefit of the doubt, have grace and patience and take a dude at his word when he says he’ll do things differently.
Since I can’t stop my initial response, I then make sure I have something at hand to help trigger a “secondary” response - when I gave a moment to turn away from the guy and think for myself for two minutes. My helpful triggers include Zawn’s work, feminist books, blogs and quotes I’ve gathered. And a 756 page tome of women’s experiences of unequal emotional labour. And my memory - I write down what be specifically promised to do and also make a quick note of whether he actually did it or not. And how he reacted to me pointing this out - did he correct straight away or argue the fact?
All these things help trigger a secondary response: suspicion. Not taking him at his word. Watching his actions more carefully. Not believing his bullshit do easily next time.
Thank you. I think that’s really smart to write down what he actually promised to do straight after he said it. I tend to be too nice with him after the fact and since I don’t remember word by word I feel like I can’t argue for my case. Also so good what you wrote about how he took the feedback, that tells a lot. And yes, hang on to that suspicion- if it’s there it’s probably there for a reason.
As a follow up question: when he does keep his word and act better, should I praise him? Stupid question perhaps but I’m wondering if praise will make it so that he won’t do things by his own machine but rather wait for me for input and output… I want him to want to do things because he wants to, not because I tell him (totally realize that I can’t control that). And yes, it does sound like I’m talking about how to train my dog 🤦
I’d be inclined to say no…it’s probably possible to “acknowledge” what he did without “praising” though…maybe after a few months of him consistently doing it, certainly not after one day of doing it.
But also, I mean if it’s basic everyday stuff like cleaning and organising, do you expect praise for it? If not, maybe he shouldn’t get a cookie for doing things he’s supposed to be doing anyway to act like a decent human being. But men’s egos are so inflated and inflatable that even verbal “acknowledgment” could be taken as praise.
You have eyes and ears though. You can see the laundry has been folded, dog has been walked, kids are getting fed. He knows you can see. And hear. So he should know you can see his actions regardless of whether or not you acknowledge verbally.
If he’s actually putting in the effort, he will experience the result of all that anyway as a happier, kinder, less exhausted you. If he’s not cognisant of a spring in your step and a general feeling of relief etc in your daily life then he’s not paying attention to how you feel, and therefore he is *not* doing the work at all - he’s not actually doing the emotional labour of paying attention, anticipating feelings, meeting needs preemptively, being nurturing, looking out for big and little ways to make your life more wonderful.
In other words, he’s not really doing any of the things to make you happier; he’s doing them to make himself feel better about himself (through praise etc). So he’s still self-focused. If that makes sense?
That makes so much sense! It is also so clear how I’m not self-focused because I’m even concerned about how he could learn basic stuff the best… your comment makes me also sadly realize that I didn’t even think my happiness or me being less exhausted be enough “reward”. It totally would be for me if the roles were reversed.
My husband does this without specifically saying "you need to gentle parent me". He will say something completely rude/insensitive and then get mad at me when I get mad at what he said. He says "I'm not an a-hole, you know I didn't mean it that way" like I'm supposed to have some kind of translator installed to interpret what he says vs. what he means. So then when I ask how he actually meant it he isn't really able to phrase it another way that is less offensive, and plays the neurodivergent card. I hardly talk to him anymore unless I have to.
After we got married (of course) he slowly stopped self-policing in public and put all the responsibility on me. If he was rude, or took a wrong turn, or made any public mistake, it was now officially *my* fault because he had formally turned that responsibility over to me!
But if I actually did correct him on a non- obvious problem, he would argue for days. And he actually increased how rude he was.
Now he wonders why I refuse to even be seen in public with him.
My ex (of an 18 year marriage) was almost exactly like this man in the question. When I finally learned what was really happening (and stopped blaming myself) this was one of our last conversations: he was going around and around implying or outright saying that I had to teach him to be kind at the same time saying I was overreacting and over emotional. It was confusing because he used these crazy circular conversations and pretended to follow logic, but it was subtly all fucked up. I finally looked at him and said very simply “I don’t want to be with someone who I need to teach to be kind. I want someone who actually is already kind”. To which he then yelled at me about how nice he actually was 🙄
I am currently in the process of separating from a partner who is much like the man described in this letter. Deciding how to proceed while also taking care of his feelings and making sure he lands softly is still a higher priority than my own damn self. I fully realize that and I feel sick thinking about it. Deprogramming myself so I'm healthy enough for another intimate relationship is going to take a long time.
As if ending the conversation and going elsewhere was not already a ‘signal’ that he is acting weird.
It really shines a light on how disingenuous this ask is. “Give me a sign!” “No. Not like that!”
Zawn, I'm wondering how you would give advice if the opposite were true? E.g. a woman says or does something and the man assigns a reason to it that makes sense in his head and paints him as the victim. "You took my special Tupperware without asking, so you must not care about my illness" for example (true story) gaslighting her into thinking did I really mean that when I said/did X? One of the hallmarks of narcissism is assigning harmful intention to people's behavior regardless of their actual intent. I'm not trying to undermine your point, just truly understand the difference, because I know there is one.
Maybe it's about the wider context. It's one thing for someone to do an action this is neutral/understandable, but which bothers their partner, and for them to has it out with the assumption no harm was intended. It's another to have a pattern of one person being rude and refusing to work on their pattern of rudeness, but instead insisting that they need to be coddled instead.
"Using my tupperware this way puts me at risk of a flare-up." "I'm sorry, I didn't realize/remember. What can I do to remedy it?" vs. "You're trying to kill me by using my Tupperware, no nothing you say or do can ever amend for this grievous harm, even though I regularly do far worse to you and refuse to acknowledge it. Please start groveling and servicing me."
Also, some people ONLY have these problems with people they feel they can dominate (wives, kids, employees, etc.). They are able to self-manage at work, with friends, etc. So that's another contextual clue.
This is wild. I love her boundaries. Would be great if he respected them.
Thank you for yet again putting things very clearly. Reading this made me think of: how can we look for behavior instead of talk? Let me elaborate. I feel like I’m conditioned to be fine with talk: if he says he’s going to do better than I should trust that, but I want him to be and do better, not talk better. How can I help myself stay on course and look for better behavior rather than settle with lip service? Any two cents in this? All input welcome.
I felt this in my soul. For a while I got so sick of the empty promises I didn't ask him to do Anything because I was so angry about repeatedly (like once a day) asking him to do the same thing and being told "I will," but he never did.
For a long time I tried not to expect anything.
Now I'm trying to demand more and actually expect it but I'm more often pleasantly surprised when he does any of the household chores.
In other words, I hear you, I understand, I sadly have no advice.
I also tend to give the benefit of the doubt, have grace and patience and take a dude at his word when he says he’ll do things differently.
Since I can’t stop my initial response, I then make sure I have something at hand to help trigger a “secondary” response - when I gave a moment to turn away from the guy and think for myself for two minutes. My helpful triggers include Zawn’s work, feminist books, blogs and quotes I’ve gathered. And a 756 page tome of women’s experiences of unequal emotional labour. And my memory - I write down what be specifically promised to do and also make a quick note of whether he actually did it or not. And how he reacted to me pointing this out - did he correct straight away or argue the fact?
All these things help trigger a secondary response: suspicion. Not taking him at his word. Watching his actions more carefully. Not believing his bullshit do easily next time.
Thank you. I think that’s really smart to write down what he actually promised to do straight after he said it. I tend to be too nice with him after the fact and since I don’t remember word by word I feel like I can’t argue for my case. Also so good what you wrote about how he took the feedback, that tells a lot. And yes, hang on to that suspicion- if it’s there it’s probably there for a reason.
As a follow up question: when he does keep his word and act better, should I praise him? Stupid question perhaps but I’m wondering if praise will make it so that he won’t do things by his own machine but rather wait for me for input and output… I want him to want to do things because he wants to, not because I tell him (totally realize that I can’t control that). And yes, it does sound like I’m talking about how to train my dog 🤦
I’d be inclined to say no…it’s probably possible to “acknowledge” what he did without “praising” though…maybe after a few months of him consistently doing it, certainly not after one day of doing it.
But also, I mean if it’s basic everyday stuff like cleaning and organising, do you expect praise for it? If not, maybe he shouldn’t get a cookie for doing things he’s supposed to be doing anyway to act like a decent human being. But men’s egos are so inflated and inflatable that even verbal “acknowledgment” could be taken as praise.
You have eyes and ears though. You can see the laundry has been folded, dog has been walked, kids are getting fed. He knows you can see. And hear. So he should know you can see his actions regardless of whether or not you acknowledge verbally.
If he’s actually putting in the effort, he will experience the result of all that anyway as a happier, kinder, less exhausted you. If he’s not cognisant of a spring in your step and a general feeling of relief etc in your daily life then he’s not paying attention to how you feel, and therefore he is *not* doing the work at all - he’s not actually doing the emotional labour of paying attention, anticipating feelings, meeting needs preemptively, being nurturing, looking out for big and little ways to make your life more wonderful.
In other words, he’s not really doing any of the things to make you happier; he’s doing them to make himself feel better about himself (through praise etc). So he’s still self-focused. If that makes sense?
That makes so much sense! It is also so clear how I’m not self-focused because I’m even concerned about how he could learn basic stuff the best… your comment makes me also sadly realize that I didn’t even think my happiness or me being less exhausted be enough “reward”. It totally would be for me if the roles were reversed.
My husband does this without specifically saying "you need to gentle parent me". He will say something completely rude/insensitive and then get mad at me when I get mad at what he said. He says "I'm not an a-hole, you know I didn't mean it that way" like I'm supposed to have some kind of translator installed to interpret what he says vs. what he means. So then when I ask how he actually meant it he isn't really able to phrase it another way that is less offensive, and plays the neurodivergent card. I hardly talk to him anymore unless I have to.
I had this problem.
After we got married (of course) he slowly stopped self-policing in public and put all the responsibility on me. If he was rude, or took a wrong turn, or made any public mistake, it was now officially *my* fault because he had formally turned that responsibility over to me!
But if I actually did correct him on a non- obvious problem, he would argue for days. And he actually increased how rude he was.
Now he wonders why I refuse to even be seen in public with him.
My ex (of an 18 year marriage) was almost exactly like this man in the question. When I finally learned what was really happening (and stopped blaming myself) this was one of our last conversations: he was going around and around implying or outright saying that I had to teach him to be kind at the same time saying I was overreacting and over emotional. It was confusing because he used these crazy circular conversations and pretended to follow logic, but it was subtly all fucked up. I finally looked at him and said very simply “I don’t want to be with someone who I need to teach to be kind. I want someone who actually is already kind”. To which he then yelled at me about how nice he actually was 🙄
I am currently in the process of separating from a partner who is much like the man described in this letter. Deciding how to proceed while also taking care of his feelings and making sure he lands softly is still a higher priority than my own damn self. I fully realize that and I feel sick thinking about it. Deprogramming myself so I'm healthy enough for another intimate relationship is going to take a long time.