I truly like the openness but we probably couldn’t be friends (yes, this ‘friends’ wasn’t said)…maybe that’s why I hardly have any. I refuse absolutely refuse to give men the benefit of the doubt. Not with all this data out here plus real tangible evidence from every single woman I’ve ever met in life PLUS they are ALL generally abusive to some woman even if not you at the time.
The evidence is all around you that men are dangerous abusers and really if you don’t see it you just aren’t looking OR trying to look. Dworkin and Greer both said this—unless women face the reality of their oppression and their use nothing can change.
Apparently I was not clear. I was in the vehicle. I was reaffirming what you wrote! The article states you and a reader got into a debate. I inserted a reference of friend here although that wasn’t said. However, you valued and cared about her perspective.
I wrote, I truly like the openness but for me we probably could not be friends. I absolutely refuse to give men the benefit of the doubt. Not only when it is proven they are the most dangerous to not only themselves but everyone/thing else. There aren’t any gray areas. I also believe women who think like that can be a danger. Imagine going out on a night on the town and she believes unless a man has proven he has spiked your drink he hasn’t spiked your drink. A man has sex with you while you are sleeping, where’s the proof? A man is not picking up the kids on time, where’s the proof? You tell her, a man is sexually harassing you at work, where’s the evidence? All part and parcel of abusive and violent men. Also, it doesn’t read like she understands the depth of grooming and coercive control in androcentrism. She feels we should only treat a man as a dangerous potential abuser when he shows evidence of being so. The evidence is all around you about men, if you don’t see it. You just refuse to.
After reflecting on this, I realize I unintentionally did this when my husband and I were dating. I had just ended an abusive relationship and wasn’t planning to date again for a long while when a mutual friend introduced us. Despite my now-husband showing many green flags, I was extremely suspicious and gave him negative benefit of the doubt. However, he didn’t suffer because of my lack of trust; instead, he understood the assignment - that he would need to invest more time and effort to prove himself. Eighteen years together, sixteen of them married, and three daughters later, we have a partnership that’s as equitable and committed as I think is possible. (And he’s one of those neurodivergent guys raised with “traditional values” (deragatory) who works long hours in a physically demanding job—exactly the type of man so often excused from not abusing their families or being expected to lift a finger at home. It’s all bullshit.)
I feel this. I feel like there were so many situations with my ex fiance where I knew in my gut something was off but I'd been conditioned by everyone as a young woman to give men the benefit of the doubt and attribute it to my overreactive anxiety or not being a "chill" girlfriend. In hind sight there were so many red flags I noticed early on that could have saved me 9 years of misery
Truly! Whenever I see it I try to point it out to my daughter and talk about it now. There's so much harmful nonsense in the sexist media we consume ever day though 🫠
Yes!! We need to get the younger ones in the know as soon as possible!!
am sure there are multiple ways to do but one thing I do is pass these types of excellent articles on to my daughter (who is 19.) I tell her it is out of love because it truly is…I want to try to give her information so that she is not as blindsided by it all as I was. We discuss them at times so I do know she reads them :)
I also have been quite open with her for several years about who her covert abuser father was (she said she was grateful to me for being age appropriate honest with her rather than pretending all was okay since she knew something was deeply wrong) and the various other low value men I have dated since. I tell her how they mirrored me, how they roped me in, and the first signs of covert abuse thank noticed. And then she saw how I would leave them. She now knows I will not date again.
She also has read “Why Does He Do That”, “”How to Spot a Dangerous Man” and other similar books with my encouragement. I also share with her the risks of dating/marrying a man…it’s between 70 and 90 percent chance of being with an abuser I tell her.
I have also written and had published a booklet on abuse which consists of the things I wish I would have known as a teenager before dating. She and I plan to distribute it far and wide once she is graduated from college. ☺️
Love the green flags list. Every young woman should make and frequently update a green flag list and a red flag list. “Be choosy” should be the plan and the message overall is “you deserve respect, love, kindness, equality/equity/fairness, and a great relationship”! And you are the chooser, young woman!
Green flags: the guy should be waving them and wrapped in layers of them or no dates and certainly no being alone, no sex, no time spent on or with him.
Love the idea that we should treat all men as guilty before proven innocent. Unlearning my generosity of spirit has been a task, but so worth it. Trust your suspicion. Respect your suspicion. You’re not overthinking it; you’re acting in a reasonable and justified manner given the risk of harm and blatant lying all men engage in to get women to jump into bed with them. Use the Precautionary principle, avoid and minimise risk. This one precious life is all you have, don’t gamble it away with some douchebag
“This one precious life is all you have don’t gamble it away.” Well said, about being SO cautious and asking a lot more questions and kind of being your own advocate/private investigator prior to marrying. Not saying get so critical no one is good enough, if you would really like to marry. But - I can speak from experience- I fell in love and didn’t really use any rhetoric in my decision. It was a beautiful time and now I am on this sub changing myself so that way when bs pops up I have a healthy outlet, you fine women, and solutions I can live with if and when my husband is mysoginistic. I feel like since being a part of this sub, my attitude has changed to giving less fucks to the gender role I am in and redifining what it is for myself to live (quiet quitting article reminded me it’s ok to exist; so I do many things a day just for me, intentionally and it really is helping my own life… not sure if it helps the kids and husband but I think so because I am happier).
One way of thinking of it is why should it be different from any other way of keeping yourself safe? Anyone living in an area in which people don't leave the doors of their houses unlocked when they are out or asleep know that any stranger who walks past the house is a potential burglar or worse.... why should other situations be viewed differently? Why should it be seen as wrong or insulting to have a first date with someone you know nothing about, in a public place, or to take any other precautions? I don't expect strangers to know that I'm not a thief or a child molester - why should it be taken personally?
Thank you, and at 65 years old, after a couple of abusive, toxic marriages, I completely agree. And, I wish I had known this 55 years ago.
I truly like the openness but we probably couldn’t be friends (yes, this ‘friends’ wasn’t said)…maybe that’s why I hardly have any. I refuse absolutely refuse to give men the benefit of the doubt. Not with all this data out here plus real tangible evidence from every single woman I’ve ever met in life PLUS they are ALL generally abusive to some woman even if not you at the time.
The evidence is all around you that men are dangerous abusers and really if you don’t see it you just aren’t looking OR trying to look. Dworkin and Greer both said this—unless women face the reality of their oppression and their use nothing can change.
I am completely confused by this comment. Are you replying to someone else? This is a post about how we an't give men the benefit of the doubt!
Apparently I was not clear. I was in the vehicle. I was reaffirming what you wrote! The article states you and a reader got into a debate. I inserted a reference of friend here although that wasn’t said. However, you valued and cared about her perspective.
I wrote, I truly like the openness but for me we probably could not be friends. I absolutely refuse to give men the benefit of the doubt. Not only when it is proven they are the most dangerous to not only themselves but everyone/thing else. There aren’t any gray areas. I also believe women who think like that can be a danger. Imagine going out on a night on the town and she believes unless a man has proven he has spiked your drink he hasn’t spiked your drink. A man has sex with you while you are sleeping, where’s the proof? A man is not picking up the kids on time, where’s the proof? You tell her, a man is sexually harassing you at work, where’s the evidence? All part and parcel of abusive and violent men. Also, it doesn’t read like she understands the depth of grooming and coercive control in androcentrism. She feels we should only treat a man as a dangerous potential abuser when he shows evidence of being so. The evidence is all around you about men, if you don’t see it. You just refuse to.
After reflecting on this, I realize I unintentionally did this when my husband and I were dating. I had just ended an abusive relationship and wasn’t planning to date again for a long while when a mutual friend introduced us. Despite my now-husband showing many green flags, I was extremely suspicious and gave him negative benefit of the doubt. However, he didn’t suffer because of my lack of trust; instead, he understood the assignment - that he would need to invest more time and effort to prove himself. Eighteen years together, sixteen of them married, and three daughters later, we have a partnership that’s as equitable and committed as I think is possible. (And he’s one of those neurodivergent guys raised with “traditional values” (deragatory) who works long hours in a physically demanding job—exactly the type of man so often excused from not abusing their families or being expected to lift a finger at home. It’s all bullshit.)
I feel this. I feel like there were so many situations with my ex fiance where I knew in my gut something was off but I'd been conditioned by everyone as a young woman to give men the benefit of the doubt and attribute it to my overreactive anxiety or not being a "chill" girlfriend. In hind sight there were so many red flags I noticed early on that could have saved me 9 years of misery
Same same same
The cool girlfriend trope has really screwed us over.
Truly! Whenever I see it I try to point it out to my daughter and talk about it now. There's so much harmful nonsense in the sexist media we consume ever day though 🫠
Now how do we drill this into the minds of every 15 year old female?
Trying to do that for my nine year old daughter now! We have a lot of conversations and I only model healthy relationships now
Good for you.
I recently left a physically abusive relationship (one incident that my very young boys witnessed)
So much healing for the three of us 😔
Oh gosh, good on you for thinking! So excited for this fresh start for you and your boys 💜
*leaving, not thinking. I'm tired 😅
Proud of you for leaving. As someone who left recently as well-I see you. Solidarity and so much love & healing to you and your boys. ❤️
Thank you :) you too.
Yes!! We need to get the younger ones in the know as soon as possible!!
am sure there are multiple ways to do but one thing I do is pass these types of excellent articles on to my daughter (who is 19.) I tell her it is out of love because it truly is…I want to try to give her information so that she is not as blindsided by it all as I was. We discuss them at times so I do know she reads them :)
I also have been quite open with her for several years about who her covert abuser father was (she said she was grateful to me for being age appropriate honest with her rather than pretending all was okay since she knew something was deeply wrong) and the various other low value men I have dated since. I tell her how they mirrored me, how they roped me in, and the first signs of covert abuse thank noticed. And then she saw how I would leave them. She now knows I will not date again.
She also has read “Why Does He Do That”, “”How to Spot a Dangerous Man” and other similar books with my encouragement. I also share with her the risks of dating/marrying a man…it’s between 70 and 90 percent chance of being with an abuser I tell her.
I have also written and had published a booklet on abuse which consists of the things I wish I would have known as a teenager before dating. She and I plan to distribute it far and wide once she is graduated from college. ☺️
I would love to hear more ideas from you/others!
Seriously, Bravo. 👏🏻
This is such important work.
And in so many cases, you don’t know the red flags until it’s too late.
Love the green flags list. Every young woman should make and frequently update a green flag list and a red flag list. “Be choosy” should be the plan and the message overall is “you deserve respect, love, kindness, equality/equity/fairness, and a great relationship”! And you are the chooser, young woman!
Green flags: the guy should be waving them and wrapped in layers of them or no dates and certainly no being alone, no sex, no time spent on or with him.
Love the idea that we should treat all men as guilty before proven innocent. Unlearning my generosity of spirit has been a task, but so worth it. Trust your suspicion. Respect your suspicion. You’re not overthinking it; you’re acting in a reasonable and justified manner given the risk of harm and blatant lying all men engage in to get women to jump into bed with them. Use the Precautionary principle, avoid and minimise risk. This one precious life is all you have, don’t gamble it away with some douchebag
“This one precious life is all you have don’t gamble it away.” Well said, about being SO cautious and asking a lot more questions and kind of being your own advocate/private investigator prior to marrying. Not saying get so critical no one is good enough, if you would really like to marry. But - I can speak from experience- I fell in love and didn’t really use any rhetoric in my decision. It was a beautiful time and now I am on this sub changing myself so that way when bs pops up I have a healthy outlet, you fine women, and solutions I can live with if and when my husband is mysoginistic. I feel like since being a part of this sub, my attitude has changed to giving less fucks to the gender role I am in and redifining what it is for myself to live (quiet quitting article reminded me it’s ok to exist; so I do many things a day just for me, intentionally and it really is helping my own life… not sure if it helps the kids and husband but I think so because I am happier).
One way of thinking of it is why should it be different from any other way of keeping yourself safe? Anyone living in an area in which people don't leave the doors of their houses unlocked when they are out or asleep know that any stranger who walks past the house is a potential burglar or worse.... why should other situations be viewed differently? Why should it be seen as wrong or insulting to have a first date with someone you know nothing about, in a public place, or to take any other precautions? I don't expect strangers to know that I'm not a thief or a child molester - why should it be taken personally?