To add: I will not plan, purchase, put up, organize, or find storage space for any holiday decorations. If my wife complains about it or suggests not doing it this year I will get upset and tell her she is depriving the kids of a memorable holiday experience.
I will not clean, prepare, or organize our home for the holiday season.
I will not find or purchase items for holiday charity drives, toy drives, or food pantries that benefit our community.
Good ones! Ugh the extra cleaning. And the charity events and the Giving Tuesdays and the "but let's give back to the community!" events that are so valuable. Yup.
Another insightful and highly validating post Zawn! Thank you! I'm gonna forward it on to my daughter's father, if that's ok?? (I'll wait until I get your say-so).
You are amazing at saying what I have known, but have not been able to put into words, for 20 years! Thank you for helping me to wake up!
Last year at Xmas after I had spent hours preparing the dinner and after we had eaten it, what did my ex do? Did he āhelpā me clean up? No he didnāt he went to bed for a nap! His family were coming round on the evening and so I was working my arse off to make sure the house was tidy or I knew his family would think bad of me. Time that I should have been spending with the children was spent cleaning and tidying. I see so clearly now and canāt believe what I put up with for so many years x
The complaining fascinates me. "It's so stressful, you do too much, that's SO much stuff, why are you putting so much time into this, come watch a movie with me instead, and by the way did I mention the holidays are SO stressful, I have to see my family and your family and I will 100% offload all my feelings about them to you!"
Oh this reminded me of the entitlement to human entertainment!! When a man wants YOU to do something with him, like watch a movie or see his YouTube video he likes or stand and talk to him while he does his share of the chores, but you have other stuff to do that needs to get done?! And then if the woman says, no, I have stuff to get done, he "feels unloved." My MIL will put together fabulous family meals, stunning affairs that take days of preparation and planning. And her husband just complains that she does too much and wants her to hang out with him (without ever actually dividing the WORK it would take to give her more free time, naturally.)
My ex used to insist that I be there to be his sous chef whenever "he" cooked. Not one did I ever ask him to chop something when I cooked but suddenly he just couldn't cope if I wasn't around for some totally foreseeable problem to help.
Oh, my current husband does the exact same. If he's doing any of the tasks I normally do alone, he *must* have my help. I have told him that the only way that I actually get a break from that task is if he completes the task himself, without my help (just like what I'm expected to do). He's whined and said that he likes having me there because I'm "so good and he values my opinion" at whatever task he's trying to accomplish. *eye roll*
I feel so SEEN. āWhy is it when you ask me for help you expect me to do it with no questions asked, but when I ask you for help you have a million questions and need a reason why?ā My partner. When he asked me to help him change the one year olds poopy diaper and I asked him why he couldnāt do it himself. I then told him I do it all the time by myself without help, he can manage.
It wasnāt a fun night in the house.
I literally hate the āwatch me do the task and be my audienceā
Bro I have shit to do
I donāt want to watch your YouTube video that I give zero fucks about, Iām literally spending time with the children.
And my favorite
āI am not talking to you at this moment [six year old] was talking to me and you interrupted him and that was rudeā
āBut I really wanna show you thisā
āIt can WAIT until Iām done with [six year old]
āRudeā
āNo whatās rude is coming in and expecting me to drop a whole conversation and everything Iām doing because of whatever you want/want to tell me/want me to fucking see on YouTube. Itās not more important than the children, and it never will be. You are not more important, and itās rude that you try and make everyone in this house feel like you are. Now, you can either be patient and wait for me and [six year old] to finish what we are doing and then tell me/show me whatever, or send it to me via text and I will see it later, but right now I am not going to acknowledge it.ā
āWhatever.ā
*it is always not important at all and very dumb*
I stopped caring with what he wanted to show me or tell me because whenever I want to show him or tel him something *he never listens or looks or whatever it may be* so Iām just giving him the same energy back at this point.
Girl, you had me at the YouTube videos!!!! And the, "watch me do the task" bit is 1000000% spot on. Mine does exactly the same garbage!
What's crazy is that, before I found Zawn's substack, I had no idea how rampant these issues were. I just thought only my husband was the ding dong, and I blamed myself for a lot of his behaviors. I'm starting to see it all for what it truly is, and its disgusting and heartbreaking and lots of other descriptor words... I'm so proud of you for standing up for yourself and your child in the example exchange you described here!
This is a HUGE point of contention for me - he was so good at equitable cooking, cleaning, communicating who is doing what during/after meal preparation: during the courtship phase. Now when he ācooksā heāll walk away from the stove, do things halfway, or, my favorite, declare heāll cook and doesnāt start. I was blamed for overcooked green beans and he tried to force me to āapologizeā even though he was cooking dinner and I gave him space to do things his way. Tried to start a fight over it. It was petty and asinine. I do everything, down to cleaning, but heās always only willing to do the dishes and leaves everything else. Itās unreal.
I appreciate your comment; I now have a name for this behavior āmale entertainment entitlementā and it happens to me too. At a rock festival in July my husband and I attended he was all ārock onā about the band he really wanted to see, and already brushing off the band I have loved since I was 7 yo but when I saw main act/why we had tickets because they are none other than RHCP, he had a stinky attitude. Also - movies itās always what he wants to watch. No trash tv or āgirly shows.ā I would like a piece done by Zawn on Male Entertainment Entitlement. I just know it would be juicy and 2000% accurate and more well versed than I could be.
I will not take any part in researching, planning for, or purchasing any gifts but will complain that my partner spent too much money and bought too many unnecessary gifts
Yes!! My Father still does this to my Mum, even if she spends as little as she can manage (theyāre now on an aged pension). Years ago she started buying from online stores over a few months, hiding them from him so he wouldnāt complain. I didnāt realise until I was older how controlling he was with their money :(
I hear complaints about not keeping up with seasonal decorations, but when I buy a few simple things from a craft store itās a nonstop litany of how Iām wasting money and need to return it. Then back to complaining about how our place isnāt festive enough and comparisons with our neighbors. Canāt win!
Another one: I am more likely to have the holidays off work stress-free with PTO, both because I am simultaneously more likely to have a regular job than my partner AND more likely to have a cushy, 9-5 bank hours job with generous benefits than my partner.
I also simultaneously get to lord this over her because no matter what job I have, it will be considered more important than hers, whether that is being a SAHM or working mom.
shout from the living room as I'm sitting watching Thanksgiving Day parades and later, football: "When is dinner going to be ready?! I'm starving! Can't you hurry it up?! Why is it taking so long?!" Then to put the real icing on the cake, I'll get the kids to behave exactly as I do so you, my wife/partner/spouse can feel really isolated and bullied.
Remembering from my family home: cleaning the garage.
It scares me that when I think of my father reorganizing the garage tools in xmas eve's it feels so normal.
My mom would go to work (until 11-1pm, she's a hairdresser and her clients need hair done for xmas too), then come back to clean and cook multiple meals for 12 people. She would also decorate the xmas tree.
My father's chore was to get a xmas tree. And he would pretend being busy doing the garage stuff nobody needed that day. He also kind of worked, he has his own business so he visited his employee's families to give them gifts. Unfortunately when he was already out, he'd go to his friends' on the way too. Having fun, when my mother was doing everything... He would come back and they would argue. He'd come inside in his shoes on as always, making mess on freshly cleaned floor with the tree and mud, never cleaning it after himself.
No presents even? That is insanity. The garage is a summer project. I wonder what all his negative demeanor was about. Gaston is the person I think of (beauty and the beast) with the boots all over. Canāt get more overtly disrespectful to a mother who is a good mother and cares. :(
Every year I will create a new, unreasonable expectation, like that the Christmas meal for 20+ people ānot generate so much food waste this yearā.
On the day, I will relax and express bonhomie, and will loudly interrupt the preparations at any moment, however crucial the timing of the cooking, to insist the people cooking pay attention to a story Iām telling.
Despite the complexities of cooking, serving and hosting, I wonāt hesitate to drink too much or get stoned so that I am not capable or willing to assist during the day. After all, it is Christmas and I want to relax.
If I eat/drink/smoke too much, I will feel free to take a nap straight after the meal when my wife and others are cleaning up.
I will feel aggrieved that my wife doesnāt enter into the spirit of my enjoyment of Christmas Day.
Mine liked to bitch about me putting in any effort. Would tell me not to put up a tree. Tell me not to decorate. Tell me not to buy gifts. And then get angry at me for doing it anyway. Or bitch about me staying up all night to wrap gifts....but not wrap one gift himself. Although I begged him for years to letās forget the holidays and gifts and decorating and just take a trip instead. It was almost as if no answer was correct.
I love Christmas and am a huge dork when it comes to setting up the tree. I now realise that being raised by feminist parents, I have made certain choices without being conscious of it. Example - my ex husband never bought me or anyone else presents. Donāt worry, I divorced him by the time I was 30. But I remember spending only 1 Christmas with his side of the family - post divorce so the mother in law could have Christmas with our babies. I went as the total outsider, I ASSUMED the ex would have done the job of buying his family Christmas presents, but he brought NOTHING! His family showered him and our kids with gifts, and the ex husband did not even think to get anything for anyone. Not even for his mum to thank her for Christmas lunch. I was mortified he could think that just showing up was all he had to do. But now, it all makes sense, because it appears that this is all most men do at Christmas. Anyway, back to the story. The best bit - his mum pulled me aside to chide ME that that he showed up empty handed. I had never for one moment thought it my responsibility to orchestrate his family Christmas (and as the new ex wife, no one got me a gift but I didnāt expect it either). I brought wine as a gift to thank his mum for the Christmas lunch, a bunch of flowers and made a dish for the lunch. He bought himself a case of beer.
I didnāt flinch when the MIL had a go at me. I said āIām not his wife and this is his family, not mine. He had just as much time and money as I did to prepare for Christmas, and he chose not to. This is not in me.ā
Iām proud of myself that it didnāt occur to me to be his Christmas fairy to bring joy to his family. Needless to say, I have never attended a Christmas with his family since. 13 years on, and I hear he only shows up with cards he hasnāt yet written in, and stuffs them each with $20. EFFORT!
To add: I will not plan, purchase, put up, organize, or find storage space for any holiday decorations. If my wife complains about it or suggests not doing it this year I will get upset and tell her she is depriving the kids of a memorable holiday experience.
I will not clean, prepare, or organize our home for the holiday season.
I will not find or purchase items for holiday charity drives, toy drives, or food pantries that benefit our community.
Perfect
Good ones! Ugh the extra cleaning. And the charity events and the Giving Tuesdays and the "but let's give back to the community!" events that are so valuable. Yup.
The cleaning is a big one. They just expect someone else (you) to do it
Another insightful and highly validating post Zawn! Thank you! I'm gonna forward it on to my daughter's father, if that's ok?? (I'll wait until I get your say-so).
Of course!
Thanks! I'll let you know what he says (if anything).
My favourite post so far Zawn.
You are amazing at saying what I have known, but have not been able to put into words, for 20 years! Thank you for helping me to wake up!
Last year at Xmas after I had spent hours preparing the dinner and after we had eaten it, what did my ex do? Did he āhelpā me clean up? No he didnāt he went to bed for a nap! His family were coming round on the evening and so I was working my arse off to make sure the house was tidy or I knew his family would think bad of me. Time that I should have been spending with the children was spent cleaning and tidying. I see so clearly now and canāt believe what I put up with for so many years x
The complaining fascinates me. "It's so stressful, you do too much, that's SO much stuff, why are you putting so much time into this, come watch a movie with me instead, and by the way did I mention the holidays are SO stressful, I have to see my family and your family and I will 100% offload all my feelings about them to you!"
WHAT is with the complaining???
Oh this reminded me of the entitlement to human entertainment!! When a man wants YOU to do something with him, like watch a movie or see his YouTube video he likes or stand and talk to him while he does his share of the chores, but you have other stuff to do that needs to get done?! And then if the woman says, no, I have stuff to get done, he "feels unloved." My MIL will put together fabulous family meals, stunning affairs that take days of preparation and planning. And her husband just complains that she does too much and wants her to hang out with him (without ever actually dividing the WORK it would take to give her more free time, naturally.)
Great post Zawn! Really got me thinking!
My ex used to insist that I be there to be his sous chef whenever "he" cooked. Not one did I ever ask him to chop something when I cooked but suddenly he just couldn't cope if I wasn't around for some totally foreseeable problem to help.
Oh, my current husband does the exact same. If he's doing any of the tasks I normally do alone, he *must* have my help. I have told him that the only way that I actually get a break from that task is if he completes the task himself, without my help (just like what I'm expected to do). He's whined and said that he likes having me there because I'm "so good and he values my opinion" at whatever task he's trying to accomplish. *eye roll*
I feel so SEEN. āWhy is it when you ask me for help you expect me to do it with no questions asked, but when I ask you for help you have a million questions and need a reason why?ā My partner. When he asked me to help him change the one year olds poopy diaper and I asked him why he couldnāt do it himself. I then told him I do it all the time by myself without help, he can manage.
It wasnāt a fun night in the house.
I literally hate the āwatch me do the task and be my audienceā
Bro I have shit to do
I donāt want to watch your YouTube video that I give zero fucks about, Iām literally spending time with the children.
And my favorite
āI am not talking to you at this moment [six year old] was talking to me and you interrupted him and that was rudeā
āBut I really wanna show you thisā
āIt can WAIT until Iām done with [six year old]
āRudeā
āNo whatās rude is coming in and expecting me to drop a whole conversation and everything Iām doing because of whatever you want/want to tell me/want me to fucking see on YouTube. Itās not more important than the children, and it never will be. You are not more important, and itās rude that you try and make everyone in this house feel like you are. Now, you can either be patient and wait for me and [six year old] to finish what we are doing and then tell me/show me whatever, or send it to me via text and I will see it later, but right now I am not going to acknowledge it.ā
āWhatever.ā
*it is always not important at all and very dumb*
I stopped caring with what he wanted to show me or tell me because whenever I want to show him or tel him something *he never listens or looks or whatever it may be* so Iām just giving him the same energy back at this point.
Girl, you had me at the YouTube videos!!!! And the, "watch me do the task" bit is 1000000% spot on. Mine does exactly the same garbage!
What's crazy is that, before I found Zawn's substack, I had no idea how rampant these issues were. I just thought only my husband was the ding dong, and I blamed myself for a lot of his behaviors. I'm starting to see it all for what it truly is, and its disgusting and heartbreaking and lots of other descriptor words... I'm so proud of you for standing up for yourself and your child in the example exchange you described here!
This is a HUGE point of contention for me - he was so good at equitable cooking, cleaning, communicating who is doing what during/after meal preparation: during the courtship phase. Now when he ācooksā heāll walk away from the stove, do things halfway, or, my favorite, declare heāll cook and doesnāt start. I was blamed for overcooked green beans and he tried to force me to āapologizeā even though he was cooking dinner and I gave him space to do things his way. Tried to start a fight over it. It was petty and asinine. I do everything, down to cleaning, but heās always only willing to do the dishes and leaves everything else. Itās unreal.
I appreciate your comment; I now have a name for this behavior āmale entertainment entitlementā and it happens to me too. At a rock festival in July my husband and I attended he was all ārock onā about the band he really wanted to see, and already brushing off the band I have loved since I was 7 yo but when I saw main act/why we had tickets because they are none other than RHCP, he had a stinky attitude. Also - movies itās always what he wants to watch. No trash tv or āgirly shows.ā I would like a piece done by Zawn on Male Entertainment Entitlement. I just know it would be juicy and 2000% accurate and more well versed than I could be.
I love this idea! Adding it to my hateful notebook now.
I will not take any part in researching, planning for, or purchasing any gifts but will complain that my partner spent too much money and bought too many unnecessary gifts
Yes!! My Father still does this to my Mum, even if she spends as little as she can manage (theyāre now on an aged pension). Years ago she started buying from online stores over a few months, hiding them from him so he wouldnāt complain. I didnāt realise until I was older how controlling he was with their money :(
I hear complaints about not keeping up with seasonal decorations, but when I buy a few simple things from a craft store itās a nonstop litany of how Iām wasting money and need to return it. Then back to complaining about how our place isnāt festive enough and comparisons with our neighbors. Canāt win!
Hmm sounds like my exact experience; and I thought I was losing my mind.
THIS!!!
Another one: I am more likely to have the holidays off work stress-free with PTO, both because I am simultaneously more likely to have a regular job than my partner AND more likely to have a cushy, 9-5 bank hours job with generous benefits than my partner.
I also simultaneously get to lord this over her because no matter what job I have, it will be considered more important than hers, whether that is being a SAHM or working mom.
This one..this one hit me where it really fucking hurts.
To add, what I WILL do:
shout from the living room as I'm sitting watching Thanksgiving Day parades and later, football: "When is dinner going to be ready?! I'm starving! Can't you hurry it up?! Why is it taking so long?!" Then to put the real icing on the cake, I'll get the kids to behave exactly as I do so you, my wife/partner/spouse can feel really isolated and bullied.
That is the worst.
I have some
- ask him to do something like run to the store and suddenly heās sooo busy and canāt do it
- ask him to help with a few things because you feel overwhelmed for doing all of it (for HIS family) and he calls you a victim
- he will complain that I get resentful when i need his āhelpā but donāt ask, but will also complain if ask him to do anything
You get mad if your wife doesnāt want to go to events with your extended family and bully her into doing so.
You expect your Christmas stocking to be filled (as well as your childrenās) however you donāt fill any of them, including your wifeās stocking.
I never even realized that I fill my stocking. And they donāt even think about it. But then of course I donāt get surprises. ššš
I donāt even bother with adult stockings- kids (and now dog) only.
Remembering from my family home: cleaning the garage.
It scares me that when I think of my father reorganizing the garage tools in xmas eve's it feels so normal.
My mom would go to work (until 11-1pm, she's a hairdresser and her clients need hair done for xmas too), then come back to clean and cook multiple meals for 12 people. She would also decorate the xmas tree.
My father's chore was to get a xmas tree. And he would pretend being busy doing the garage stuff nobody needed that day. He also kind of worked, he has his own business so he visited his employee's families to give them gifts. Unfortunately when he was already out, he'd go to his friends' on the way too. Having fun, when my mother was doing everything... He would come back and they would argue. He'd come inside in his shoes on as always, making mess on freshly cleaned floor with the tree and mud, never cleaning it after himself.
Unbelievable.
At least we didn't have presents.
No presents even? That is insanity. The garage is a summer project. I wonder what all his negative demeanor was about. Gaston is the person I think of (beauty and the beast) with the boots all over. Canāt get more overtly disrespectful to a mother who is a good mother and cares. :(
Every year I will create a new, unreasonable expectation, like that the Christmas meal for 20+ people ānot generate so much food waste this yearā.
On the day, I will relax and express bonhomie, and will loudly interrupt the preparations at any moment, however crucial the timing of the cooking, to insist the people cooking pay attention to a story Iām telling.
Despite the complexities of cooking, serving and hosting, I wonāt hesitate to drink too much or get stoned so that I am not capable or willing to assist during the day. After all, it is Christmas and I want to relax.
If I eat/drink/smoke too much, I will feel free to take a nap straight after the meal when my wife and others are cleaning up.
I will feel aggrieved that my wife doesnāt enter into the spirit of my enjoyment of Christmas Day.
It's the decorating for me. My ex wouldn't even help decorate the tree with me and the kids or do the lights outside. I did it all.
Mine liked to bitch about me putting in any effort. Would tell me not to put up a tree. Tell me not to decorate. Tell me not to buy gifts. And then get angry at me for doing it anyway. Or bitch about me staying up all night to wrap gifts....but not wrap one gift himself. Although I begged him for years to letās forget the holidays and gifts and decorating and just take a trip instead. It was almost as if no answer was correct.
Oh waitš
I love Christmas and am a huge dork when it comes to setting up the tree. I now realise that being raised by feminist parents, I have made certain choices without being conscious of it. Example - my ex husband never bought me or anyone else presents. Donāt worry, I divorced him by the time I was 30. But I remember spending only 1 Christmas with his side of the family - post divorce so the mother in law could have Christmas with our babies. I went as the total outsider, I ASSUMED the ex would have done the job of buying his family Christmas presents, but he brought NOTHING! His family showered him and our kids with gifts, and the ex husband did not even think to get anything for anyone. Not even for his mum to thank her for Christmas lunch. I was mortified he could think that just showing up was all he had to do. But now, it all makes sense, because it appears that this is all most men do at Christmas. Anyway, back to the story. The best bit - his mum pulled me aside to chide ME that that he showed up empty handed. I had never for one moment thought it my responsibility to orchestrate his family Christmas (and as the new ex wife, no one got me a gift but I didnāt expect it either). I brought wine as a gift to thank his mum for the Christmas lunch, a bunch of flowers and made a dish for the lunch. He bought himself a case of beer.
I didnāt flinch when the MIL had a go at me. I said āIām not his wife and this is his family, not mine. He had just as much time and money as I did to prepare for Christmas, and he chose not to. This is not in me.ā
Iām proud of myself that it didnāt occur to me to be his Christmas fairy to bring joy to his family. Needless to say, I have never attended a Christmas with his family since. 13 years on, and I hear he only shows up with cards he hasnāt yet written in, and stuffs them each with $20. EFFORT!