When I was in my early 20s, I threw a dinner party with a bunch of friends and somehow the topic of being attacked by men came up. It turned out that Every. Single. Woman there (about 8) had at least one terrifying story, including me. The assaults included being attacked in a stairwell walking up to her apartment; being followed for a long time by an aggressive male driver who had gotten offended by my friend somehow; being pinned against the centrifuge in the lab and force kissed by a colleague; being date-raped; suddenly being fingered by a school mate in the surf; being grabbed while getting into her car (me: I managed to fight him off but it was really close).
And the guys there were either completely quiet or they were ARGUING with us about what constituted sexual assault. One guy got particularly upset about us viewing the aggressive following driver in the same light as the date rapist. He mansplained us endlessly. :/
I reckon though that the quiet guys were just as bad as the arguers because they had probably rationalized to themselves that "I'M not a bad guy" so they didn't have to spend one second thinking about the issue anymore.
It's true: it's really stunning how men (the VAST VAST majority) don't understand how terrifying the male population is to women. And they don't care, because it doesn't pertain to them.
It's possible a rapist could leave quickly and doesn't know where you live. He likely will try to avoid you. For the stalking driver, I'd be worried he has your address, full name and wonder how long he's going to follow you. No one that hasn't experienced ANY of this should ever have the fudging audacity to tell the victims what the value points of the crime is.
Men are afraid of men too, especially in America. "Fear of men" is the primary argument for gun ownership on the right, and gun regulation on the left.
I think a better question is, what are men gaining from women's fear. Why won't they give that up?
Exactly. Surely a large percentage of the male population must lean into that fear and use it for their own gain. Abusers, obviously do. And on a larger scale, it keeps us in line. Women being afraid to walk outside after dark for example. Do they do this consciously? They probably don't have to, it's in the patriarchal air we breathe.
I, too, believe that his denial is intentional, Except for possibly mentally challenged kiddos and for children captured and made to become soldiers, most of the World's non - hungry children KNOW by their ages of six or seven or eight years, WHAT ACTS by Others make them feel good and what actions by others make them feel bad or confused.
After about the age of eight years then ? WHAT acts these children themselves engage in doing ... ... those acts are the child's, and most certainly the adult's, CHOICE. IF his choice is to harm and to dehumanize and to destroy girls or women, say, for some perceived GAIN thereby of his, THEN he KNOWS what destruction his acts will likely cause / he KNOWS that his choice is ... ... quite INTENTIONAL.
I appreciate that you are exploring the fear and violence underlying inequality because I had a sense of it but hadn't really put words to it before. I have tried to explain to my husband that his raising his voice scares me and the children, and his response is always the same: disbelief, sometimes laughter, and saying, "but you know I'd never actually hurt anyone" 🙄
Then they complain about women's fear. "I can't even approach a woman without being interpreted as creepy!" As if they are the victims.
Also, raising his voice--which is louder and more booming than yours and the children--while being physically larger and stronger than you and the children *is* hurting you.
OMG!!!! YOU SAID IT!!! I literally told my STBX this two days ago. I repeated it aloud to myself again when I read this article too!! I almost died when I saw this comment of yours. THAT IS A FORM OF BULLYING!!!!! Itself *is already* a harm, a way of taking power. We're ALREADY hurt by you by the time anything escalates.
It reached a point with my husband /ex where he’d constantly make fun of me for being afraid of him and claim I was “afraid of everything in life.” I was walking on eggshells so I’d jump when he came into a room quietly and he’d get angry over even that. He never once actually tried to soothe that or make me feel safe once I was that jittery in our home.
And when that EASY "role"- which he failed at- is gone, what's left? Nothing. He couldn't even edit his behavior in the slightest for his own marriage!!! Wow what a complete failure of a person!!!!
I ended up feeling the same. I'd panic when I heard the car in the driveway and practically jump out my skin if the front door opened without warning. I'm almost 3 years out and unfortunately this excessive startle reflex is still present. There is nothing better than leaving and feeling safe in your home again. Their anger is like a poison.
My anger is a poison that drives them away too!!! The good ones seem to stick though, usually. Your own anger can be a filter, a gift like Rage Against the Machine says!
This comment is so triggering for me- I know that feeling. There is nothing as infuriating and enraging as that feeling. Here you are fearing him, and he gets ANGRY at you for it, THEREBY MAKING YOU FEAR HIM MORE. How sadistic and sick is that? I swear, men are sooooo boring and empty!
It is amazing when a group of women open up about their experiences with men. My small group of friends consists of 11 women.
5 remain partnered, although two of them are stuck because of DV and the other 2 are making plans to leave because they have utterly useless husbands that don’t even work. The remaining 6 of us without partners left because of domestic violence.
Only one friend is married to an excellent man who has my respect and the respect and love of his family and wife.
6 of us left years ago. In total, 8 out of 11 of us (73%) have experienced a range of physical and sexual violence, financial abuse, had our children weaponised, experienced intimidation, threats of violence and manipulation. Some of these behaviours have remained ongoing even years after separation. One of my friends kids had a gun pointed at them by their dad.
Men as protectors and providers? Men flabbergasted at the thought of women being scared of them? Seriously!
It continues to amaze me how this is the experience of seemingly the majority of women yet there is still so little understanding or support available.
It amazes me when I think about my friends and their spouses and the small number of men I actually know that are genuinely good, relatively unselfish people. It's less than half..... What has happened to men!???
It's crazy how often I think about this. They are HALF the population of earth!!!!! I mean WTF CMON, DO.BETTER!!!! Was it ALWAYS like this? I don't think so either- or is this only being exposed now , meaning that every single woman of the past was bombarded by nearly every man being a predator yet lying to us about it?? Only an American thing???!?!! Is it pollution? Hormone-mimicking chemicals in the environment; politics; childrearing methods; social isolation????!?!! I'm leaning towards all of these...
Holy SHITE wow. I can't believe it..I only wish I'd known this when I was a kid. I wouldn't have ever bothered with dating at all!!! Those numbers are unreal.
Men seem to equate violence with heroism but they are just as scared. They live with it and therefore they think women should too. They casually invoke the threat of violence for almost no reason with the women in their lives. And then they deny that they’ve done it when it’s pointed out. It’s all a joke until it’s not.
A friend of mine once complained about a law school classmate who told her how he was walking alone at night through what was reputed to be a dangerous neighborhood*. Realizing how that intimidated him, he said it made him think about how women must often walk around feeling fearful. My friend tried explaining, well, actually our fear more often is when we go on dates or when we're approached in bars by strange men, etc. He dismissed that, saying, oh, but there are signs when men like that are dangerous. Way to victim blame, as my friend said.
But I'm struck by that response because it seems so similar to others I've encountered, even from men who "get it" or are sympathetic to women in some respects. This idea that there are "signs," that violent or abusive or even just dishonest men are easily recognizable, and therefore women who are hurt by those men were just willfully ignorant or flouting all normal cautions. Like, who are these men going around announcing or wearing stickers, "Yes, I'm a rapist /abuser/ attacker"? I wish I could ask them, how honest and transparent are you with women about the risks you pose to them? How often do you disclose the intimidation you wield?
*(This racist and oppressive idea about "dangerous" neighborhoods is a whole other issue that could be its own post).
This is such a fantastic point. It can literally turn on a dime. Men who think they're good guys don't understand that men who present as good often don't stay good.
they may change, but that's not as scary as the experience of being stuck alone in an empty neighborhood near dark where people you know for a fact to be dangerous *because you live in the area and know them* will absolutely come at you with nothing stopping them as people in a bar or public place likely will.
I dunno if I agree personally as there's definite diversity on this subject. I may be an outlier as I've never driven and am pretty street savvy being from NYC working class neighborhoods but I definitely have noticed that from childhood, we seem to be more afraid out towards dark in certain neighborhoods (this refers also to their planning layout, amount of trees, isolated corners and population density as much as socioeconomic status) than sitting at a bar or going on a date- all of which we have certain levels of control over. I would push back against that notion as that may not be typical of most womens' feelings.
At this point it’s going to read like I am fear mongering . Albeit, always questioning myself as a woman for speaking the negative truths about men. Wishing I was also so hopeful on not all men, but I am not. It is all men and if not the ones directly causing harm. It is the ones indirectly causing harm with excuses, indifference and neutrality that for centuries have allowed this culture to continue. In 1981 Levinson said, ‘Women are the preferred victims for family violence. This is where men exercise power, anger and channel their frustrations.’ But I’d even take it a step further to say, minus the ‘family’ part. Women are the preferred victim for violence from men: full stop. This is where they exert all their dominance and control.
My parents have 5 daughters. Three have been r@ped, two more than once. The 4th has been in two long term abusive relationships; the last one resulted in a now teenager who struggles with anxiety and anger issues as a result. He’s still manipulating them 2.5 years after they left.
I don’t date men now, but when I was in my 20’s I did while trying to be “straight”. I hated it, I never felt safe and I had a couple of stalkers in that time. Despite all of this, my Dad has an answer for everything and passes judgement on any case he hears about in the media. Even my Mum, who was abused herself by her older brother and first husband, comes out with some awful comments about other women. The difference is that she takes it on board when I pull her up on it.
“If you’re not regularly hearing these stories from the women in your life, it’s either because you’re not listening or because they don’t trust you enough to share” this one really got me. They don’t listen and when they do hear it they obviously don’t care enough to take action.
There was a Dave Chapelle bit from like 20 years ago where he described carrying a backpack full of cash in the subway. He describes how scary it was for him, and then he has the revelation that women feel this way every day. The language is crass and Dave is problematic in a lot of ways, but the message was profound to me as a young man.
Yes it really is not a bad analogy at all. People try to come at you for anything as a woman. For attention, validation, comfort, humor, admiration, money, touch and so on. Complete strangers feel entitled to your body, time and attention and this can get ugly pretty fast.
“ The abuse of women and girls is T H E MOST PERVASIVE and UNaddressed HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION on EARTH. Women’s inequality has profoundly affected our World.
And IN GENERAL, MEN DON'T GIVE A DAMN.
That's true. The AVERAGE MAN who might say, ' I'm against the abuse of women and girls, '
QUIETLY A C C E P T S the PRIVILEGED POSITION that WE OCCUPY. ”
--- --- Mr Jimmy Carter, 39th U S President, Nobelist = y2002 Nobel Peace Prize
Great point about men yapping about "protecting women" while insisting there are no dangers for us they themselves aren't subject to as well. The absurdities are infinite.
This is why I limit interactions with males to only necessary people. They are a head ache! There is no reasoning with them
‘Men is headache’ and I totally agree
What a powerful piece! Thankyou Zawn for explaining this concept so clearly. Now if we could just take away their access to semi automatic weapons….
When I was in my early 20s, I threw a dinner party with a bunch of friends and somehow the topic of being attacked by men came up. It turned out that Every. Single. Woman there (about 8) had at least one terrifying story, including me. The assaults included being attacked in a stairwell walking up to her apartment; being followed for a long time by an aggressive male driver who had gotten offended by my friend somehow; being pinned against the centrifuge in the lab and force kissed by a colleague; being date-raped; suddenly being fingered by a school mate in the surf; being grabbed while getting into her car (me: I managed to fight him off but it was really close).
And the guys there were either completely quiet or they were ARGUING with us about what constituted sexual assault. One guy got particularly upset about us viewing the aggressive following driver in the same light as the date rapist. He mansplained us endlessly. :/
I reckon though that the quiet guys were just as bad as the arguers because they had probably rationalized to themselves that "I'M not a bad guy" so they didn't have to spend one second thinking about the issue anymore.
It's true: it's really stunning how men (the VAST VAST majority) don't understand how terrifying the male population is to women. And they don't care, because it doesn't pertain to them.
It's possible a rapist could leave quickly and doesn't know where you live. He likely will try to avoid you. For the stalking driver, I'd be worried he has your address, full name and wonder how long he's going to follow you. No one that hasn't experienced ANY of this should ever have the fudging audacity to tell the victims what the value points of the crime is.
It feels like intentional denial to me.
Men are afraid of men too, especially in America. "Fear of men" is the primary argument for gun ownership on the right, and gun regulation on the left.
I think a better question is, what are men gaining from women's fear. Why won't they give that up?
Exactly. Surely a large percentage of the male population must lean into that fear and use it for their own gain. Abusers, obviously do. And on a larger scale, it keeps us in line. Women being afraid to walk outside after dark for example. Do they do this consciously? They probably don't have to, it's in the patriarchal air we breathe.
so sick.
I, too, believe that his denial is intentional, Except for possibly mentally challenged kiddos and for children captured and made to become soldiers, most of the World's non - hungry children KNOW by their ages of six or seven or eight years, WHAT ACTS by Others make them feel good and what actions by others make them feel bad or confused.
After about the age of eight years then ? WHAT acts these children themselves engage in doing ... ... those acts are the child's, and most certainly the adult's, CHOICE. IF his choice is to harm and to dehumanize and to destroy girls or women, say, for some perceived GAIN thereby of his, THEN he KNOWS what destruction his acts will likely cause / he KNOWS that his choice is ... ... quite INTENTIONAL.
Almost sounds ....a bit.... COWARDLY to me.
I appreciate that you are exploring the fear and violence underlying inequality because I had a sense of it but hadn't really put words to it before. I have tried to explain to my husband that his raising his voice scares me and the children, and his response is always the same: disbelief, sometimes laughter, and saying, "but you know I'd never actually hurt anyone" 🙄
Then they complain about women's fear. "I can't even approach a woman without being interpreted as creepy!" As if they are the victims.
Also, raising his voice--which is louder and more booming than yours and the children--while being physically larger and stronger than you and the children *is* hurting you.
OMG!!!! YOU SAID IT!!! I literally told my STBX this two days ago. I repeated it aloud to myself again when I read this article too!! I almost died when I saw this comment of yours. THAT IS A FORM OF BULLYING!!!!! Itself *is already* a harm, a way of taking power. We're ALREADY hurt by you by the time anything escalates.
Usually that just means they're ugly. Like straight hideous.
It reached a point with my husband /ex where he’d constantly make fun of me for being afraid of him and claim I was “afraid of everything in life.” I was walking on eggshells so I’d jump when he came into a room quietly and he’d get angry over even that. He never once actually tried to soothe that or make me feel safe once I was that jittery in our home.
Yet he probably saw himself as your protector. Men! Who’d have them? I’m glad he’s your ex.
And when that EASY "role"- which he failed at- is gone, what's left? Nothing. He couldn't even edit his behavior in the slightest for his own marriage!!! Wow what a complete failure of a person!!!!
So glad he is your EX now !!!!
I ended up feeling the same. I'd panic when I heard the car in the driveway and practically jump out my skin if the front door opened without warning. I'm almost 3 years out and unfortunately this excessive startle reflex is still present. There is nothing better than leaving and feeling safe in your home again. Their anger is like a poison.
My anger is a poison that drives them away too!!! The good ones seem to stick though, usually. Your own anger can be a filter, a gift like Rage Against the Machine says!
His job in life is to make you feel safe and NOT afraid. Patriarchy is extremely traumatizing!
This comment is so triggering for me- I know that feeling. There is nothing as infuriating and enraging as that feeling. Here you are fearing him, and he gets ANGRY at you for it, THEREBY MAKING YOU FEAR HIM MORE. How sadistic and sick is that? I swear, men are sooooo boring and empty!
It is amazing when a group of women open up about their experiences with men. My small group of friends consists of 11 women.
5 remain partnered, although two of them are stuck because of DV and the other 2 are making plans to leave because they have utterly useless husbands that don’t even work. The remaining 6 of us without partners left because of domestic violence.
Only one friend is married to an excellent man who has my respect and the respect and love of his family and wife.
6 of us left years ago. In total, 8 out of 11 of us (73%) have experienced a range of physical and sexual violence, financial abuse, had our children weaponised, experienced intimidation, threats of violence and manipulation. Some of these behaviours have remained ongoing even years after separation. One of my friends kids had a gun pointed at them by their dad.
Men as protectors and providers? Men flabbergasted at the thought of women being scared of them? Seriously!
It continues to amaze me how this is the experience of seemingly the majority of women yet there is still so little understanding or support available.
It amazes me when I think about my friends and their spouses and the small number of men I actually know that are genuinely good, relatively unselfish people. It's less than half..... What has happened to men!???
It's crazy how often I think about this. They are HALF the population of earth!!!!! I mean WTF CMON, DO.BETTER!!!! Was it ALWAYS like this? I don't think so either- or is this only being exposed now , meaning that every single woman of the past was bombarded by nearly every man being a predator yet lying to us about it?? Only an American thing???!?!! Is it pollution? Hormone-mimicking chemicals in the environment; politics; childrearing methods; social isolation????!?!! I'm leaning towards all of these...
Holy SHITE wow. I can't believe it..I only wish I'd known this when I was a kid. I wouldn't have ever bothered with dating at all!!! Those numbers are unreal.
Men seem to equate violence with heroism but they are just as scared. They live with it and therefore they think women should too. They casually invoke the threat of violence for almost no reason with the women in their lives. And then they deny that they’ve done it when it’s pointed out. It’s all a joke until it’s not.
I think this describes it perfectly. Underneath it all, most men, most people probably are quite cowardly and dishonest. The two worst traits.
A friend of mine once complained about a law school classmate who told her how he was walking alone at night through what was reputed to be a dangerous neighborhood*. Realizing how that intimidated him, he said it made him think about how women must often walk around feeling fearful. My friend tried explaining, well, actually our fear more often is when we go on dates or when we're approached in bars by strange men, etc. He dismissed that, saying, oh, but there are signs when men like that are dangerous. Way to victim blame, as my friend said.
But I'm struck by that response because it seems so similar to others I've encountered, even from men who "get it" or are sympathetic to women in some respects. This idea that there are "signs," that violent or abusive or even just dishonest men are easily recognizable, and therefore women who are hurt by those men were just willfully ignorant or flouting all normal cautions. Like, who are these men going around announcing or wearing stickers, "Yes, I'm a rapist /abuser/ attacker"? I wish I could ask them, how honest and transparent are you with women about the risks you pose to them? How often do you disclose the intimidation you wield?
*(This racist and oppressive idea about "dangerous" neighborhoods is a whole other issue that could be its own post).
This is such a fantastic point. It can literally turn on a dime. Men who think they're good guys don't understand that men who present as good often don't stay good.
they may change, but that's not as scary as the experience of being stuck alone in an empty neighborhood near dark where people you know for a fact to be dangerous *because you live in the area and know them* will absolutely come at you with nothing stopping them as people in a bar or public place likely will.
I dunno if I agree personally as there's definite diversity on this subject. I may be an outlier as I've never driven and am pretty street savvy being from NYC working class neighborhoods but I definitely have noticed that from childhood, we seem to be more afraid out towards dark in certain neighborhoods (this refers also to their planning layout, amount of trees, isolated corners and population density as much as socioeconomic status) than sitting at a bar or going on a date- all of which we have certain levels of control over. I would push back against that notion as that may not be typical of most womens' feelings.
At this point it’s going to read like I am fear mongering . Albeit, always questioning myself as a woman for speaking the negative truths about men. Wishing I was also so hopeful on not all men, but I am not. It is all men and if not the ones directly causing harm. It is the ones indirectly causing harm with excuses, indifference and neutrality that for centuries have allowed this culture to continue. In 1981 Levinson said, ‘Women are the preferred victims for family violence. This is where men exercise power, anger and channel their frustrations.’ But I’d even take it a step further to say, minus the ‘family’ part. Women are the preferred victim for violence from men: full stop. This is where they exert all their dominance and control.
My parents have 5 daughters. Three have been r@ped, two more than once. The 4th has been in two long term abusive relationships; the last one resulted in a now teenager who struggles with anxiety and anger issues as a result. He’s still manipulating them 2.5 years after they left.
I don’t date men now, but when I was in my 20’s I did while trying to be “straight”. I hated it, I never felt safe and I had a couple of stalkers in that time. Despite all of this, my Dad has an answer for everything and passes judgement on any case he hears about in the media. Even my Mum, who was abused herself by her older brother and first husband, comes out with some awful comments about other women. The difference is that she takes it on board when I pull her up on it.
“If you’re not regularly hearing these stories from the women in your life, it’s either because you’re not listening or because they don’t trust you enough to share” this one really got me. They don’t listen and when they do hear it they obviously don’t care enough to take action.
There was a Dave Chapelle bit from like 20 years ago where he described carrying a backpack full of cash in the subway. He describes how scary it was for him, and then he has the revelation that women feel this way every day. The language is crass and Dave is problematic in a lot of ways, but the message was profound to me as a young man.
Wow this is a great analogy
Yes it really is not a bad analogy at all. People try to come at you for anything as a woman. For attention, validation, comfort, humor, admiration, money, touch and so on. Complete strangers feel entitled to your body, time and attention and this can get ugly pretty fast.
“ The abuse of women and girls is T H E MOST PERVASIVE and UNaddressed HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION on EARTH. Women’s inequality has profoundly affected our World.
And IN GENERAL, MEN DON'T GIVE A DAMN.
That's true. The AVERAGE MAN who might say, ' I'm against the abuse of women and girls, '
QUIETLY A C C E P T S the PRIVILEGED POSITION that WE OCCUPY. ”
--- --- Mr Jimmy Carter, 39th U S President, Nobelist = y2002 Nobel Peace Prize
https://womenscoalition.substack.com/s/the-saga-of-one-fked-mother
Love that guy. I remember my mother voting against him lol.
Excellent article. Thank you, Zawn !!!!
Great point about men yapping about "protecting women" while insisting there are no dangers for us they themselves aren't subject to as well. The absurdities are infinite.