I love this answer, Zawn, because it does not sugarcoat the problem or tell the woman it is her job to change. It's like any other risk-benefit calculation, only it's hard to think of it this way thanks to cultural gaslighting.
Here's another thing for people asking the question the original letter writer asked(as I too had asked): you can set the pace. You can set the distance. By that I mean, go slow in the relationship, just date, no commitments, no moving in, no "fiancé" and certainly no marriage until way on down the line.
Mainly, keep your own finances and work completely separated from the relationship, and completely centered in your own life. The man is EXTRACURRICULAR. He gets no say in your money, your security, your job, your livelihood. PERIOD. Hard boundary. The very moment he interferes or diminishes your financial security or your work life and career success? He's gone. Also, keep your living space and your personal time separate. He can visit and sleep over if you invite him, as you can visit and sleep over with him if invited, but he does not get to tell you what you can do in your own space, and no one, I mean no one, makes a mess in your space and expects you to clean it up. Things like that, you can have the relationship but keep him away from potential trouble zones---he can do no harm if you don't let him in those areas.
So, some hard boundaries around specific areas where patriarchy has allowed, and encouraged, men to abuse women. Just don't even let any of that stuff start. And that way you can enjoy this relationship but still be safe. (I am assuming it is safe to have sex with him and he is not abisive in that way, or you wouldn't even be asking the question. If I'm wrong, rethink the WHOLE thing.)
Patience is the best thing. I am not rushing now. If I need to leave strongly to make a point, I do. But underneath sometimes he understands me better than I do and I learn something about myself. Having the worst imaginable time has made me curious.
There is simply no map for body/mind/soul love in patriarchy. It takes time, and yes, trust.
>He’s still had missteps, he is a human who is imperfect, and as a man, just didn’t know what he didn’t know up until a certain point.
>he is sincerely willing to do what it takes to learn and grow and understand why some of the things he did in the past—though pretty good by our standards of men—still weren’t perfect. Is there a way to accept a man’s imperfect past when he is good in the present?
I'm also curious to know what he did. Did he call a woman a b*tch once or a few times? Was he creepy towards women in the past? Did he cheat on someone?
My gut feeling is that he can talk the talk about feminism, but he hasn't shown you through his actions. He can say till the cows come home "yeah it was wrong I did X" but does he know why it was wrong, the impact on women and why it could impact you? And how did he change after that? You mention that he is willing to learn and grow, but what has he actually done in all the years that he's known you, other than starting discussions with you on feminism? You don't talk about how he's actually changed and I feel that you would know it if he has.
It's true that someone of an oppressor group can't understand the experience of the oppressed. Just like white people can't understand what it's like to be BIPOC, able-bodied people can't understand the experience of a person with disabilities, etc.
So you really have to discern: do they get it, and even if they can't have your experience, they still respect your position and they use their privilege to support you and centre you? Do you trust him? Do you feel safe with him? If even a tiny bit of you says no, it's a no.
It sounds like he does have some problematic behaviour and you kind of want to overlook it but at the same time you don't. It's fine that you love him. It doesn't mean you have to be in a relationship with him.
Yeah if it really was problematic behaviour in the past, did go back and he apologise and repair with the people he harmed? If not, why not? Is he still on speaking terms with any of them? If not, why not?
I wrote a letter recently to the ex - seven years after the breakup. I thought to myself, what if I’m being a bit harsh and he has changed? But I knew he hadn’t changed precisely because he had made no attempts to apologise and repair with me in the intervening years. If he hadn’t had the balls to repair with me, then he probably wasn’t a feminist ally anyway. My ex was truly STUNNING at talking the talk of self-responsibility and how much inner work he was doing but there was no accountability. Sadly I only found out once I was a bit mushy and in love and it was a bit late to emotionally extricate myself easily at that point..
Being in love really makes us see with rose coloured glasses, right? "When you have rose coloured glasses on, red flags look don't look red." I think this is why I've always been cynical about being "in love" - because people get delusional and lose all sense of self-preservation! (This is not a criticism of you or anyone who's been in love with unhealthy or abusive people)
I think when guys talk (or crow) about how feminist they are and how they really want to do the work, it's easy to get taken in by that and think "oh yeah that sounds good." We *want* to believe they're a good person, and it's no fun to think we are, or could be, sleeping with the enemy. But nothing is worth your life and sanity. Pay attention to if 👏 they're 👏 actually 👏 doing 👏 the 👏 work. 👏 Like I said, they can talk and talk, but look at their actions. How do they treat you and other people? How do they talk about women? Are they self-reflective and aware? Do they care about feminist issues, like abortion, equal pay, anti-racism, household labour equity, are they supportive of you and your dreams? And do they show those things, not just say them?
If you don’t want to have intimate partnerships or relationships you also don’t have to-respectful, loving, supportive friendships are just as important and meaningful (and often undervalued, especially by the patriarchy) but mean you remain much more in control
Here's where I see a maybe red flag: "...we had many open conversations about difficult topics related to feminism, most initiated by him, to which he remained willing to be reflective and admit his shortcomings with a genuine desire to be a better man and person."
I know a few guys like this. They have these conversations performatively because they like to feel intellectual or like they are becoming better (without real effort or change) or (at the worst) like they are actually educating YOU about these topics. Your description of this relationship reminds me of these guys. Was he having these deep, meaningful conversations with you AS he made these "past missteps?"
Does something about the way he is interacting with you feel performative? Insincere? You might be sensing that under the surface but have no real way to put your finger on what it is or why you feel that way. It's hard to spot. Just some food for thought. This, in addition to these past missteps and your hesitance in general, makes me think you probably don't actually want to be in a relationship with this man.
If you're happy on your own, why go through the rigamorale of being with a man? This is where I have landed and it would take an actual act of God and one in a million guy for me to be willing, simply because I don't need them. I felt like I had to put up with what I could get before because I didn't know how happy I would be without them. So if you're happy without him, why bother?
I love this answer, Zawn, because it does not sugarcoat the problem or tell the woman it is her job to change. It's like any other risk-benefit calculation, only it's hard to think of it this way thanks to cultural gaslighting.
Here's another thing for people asking the question the original letter writer asked(as I too had asked): you can set the pace. You can set the distance. By that I mean, go slow in the relationship, just date, no commitments, no moving in, no "fiancé" and certainly no marriage until way on down the line.
Mainly, keep your own finances and work completely separated from the relationship, and completely centered in your own life. The man is EXTRACURRICULAR. He gets no say in your money, your security, your job, your livelihood. PERIOD. Hard boundary. The very moment he interferes or diminishes your financial security or your work life and career success? He's gone. Also, keep your living space and your personal time separate. He can visit and sleep over if you invite him, as you can visit and sleep over with him if invited, but he does not get to tell you what you can do in your own space, and no one, I mean no one, makes a mess in your space and expects you to clean it up. Things like that, you can have the relationship but keep him away from potential trouble zones---he can do no harm if you don't let him in those areas.
So, some hard boundaries around specific areas where patriarchy has allowed, and encouraged, men to abuse women. Just don't even let any of that stuff start. And that way you can enjoy this relationship but still be safe. (I am assuming it is safe to have sex with him and he is not abisive in that way, or you wouldn't even be asking the question. If I'm wrong, rethink the WHOLE thing.)
AGREE.
Patience is the best thing. I am not rushing now. If I need to leave strongly to make a point, I do. But underneath sometimes he understands me better than I do and I learn something about myself. Having the worst imaginable time has made me curious.
There is simply no map for body/mind/soul love in patriarchy. It takes time, and yes, trust.
This is an excellent comment. 🔥
Thank you Rosie! Decades of hard-won experiences... like we all go through.
YES YES
Marvelous Zawn! I forwarded to my daughters as a MUST READ. Thank you. ♥️
Such a great question and answer. Thank you both!
>He’s still had missteps, he is a human who is imperfect, and as a man, just didn’t know what he didn’t know up until a certain point.
>he is sincerely willing to do what it takes to learn and grow and understand why some of the things he did in the past—though pretty good by our standards of men—still weren’t perfect. Is there a way to accept a man’s imperfect past when he is good in the present?
I'm also curious to know what he did. Did he call a woman a b*tch once or a few times? Was he creepy towards women in the past? Did he cheat on someone?
My gut feeling is that he can talk the talk about feminism, but he hasn't shown you through his actions. He can say till the cows come home "yeah it was wrong I did X" but does he know why it was wrong, the impact on women and why it could impact you? And how did he change after that? You mention that he is willing to learn and grow, but what has he actually done in all the years that he's known you, other than starting discussions with you on feminism? You don't talk about how he's actually changed and I feel that you would know it if he has.
It's true that someone of an oppressor group can't understand the experience of the oppressed. Just like white people can't understand what it's like to be BIPOC, able-bodied people can't understand the experience of a person with disabilities, etc.
So you really have to discern: do they get it, and even if they can't have your experience, they still respect your position and they use their privilege to support you and centre you? Do you trust him? Do you feel safe with him? If even a tiny bit of you says no, it's a no.
It sounds like he does have some problematic behaviour and you kind of want to overlook it but at the same time you don't. It's fine that you love him. It doesn't mean you have to be in a relationship with him.
Yeah if it really was problematic behaviour in the past, did go back and he apologise and repair with the people he harmed? If not, why not? Is he still on speaking terms with any of them? If not, why not?
I wrote a letter recently to the ex - seven years after the breakup. I thought to myself, what if I’m being a bit harsh and he has changed? But I knew he hadn’t changed precisely because he had made no attempts to apologise and repair with me in the intervening years. If he hadn’t had the balls to repair with me, then he probably wasn’t a feminist ally anyway. My ex was truly STUNNING at talking the talk of self-responsibility and how much inner work he was doing but there was no accountability. Sadly I only found out once I was a bit mushy and in love and it was a bit late to emotionally extricate myself easily at that point..
Being in love really makes us see with rose coloured glasses, right? "When you have rose coloured glasses on, red flags look don't look red." I think this is why I've always been cynical about being "in love" - because people get delusional and lose all sense of self-preservation! (This is not a criticism of you or anyone who's been in love with unhealthy or abusive people)
I think when guys talk (or crow) about how feminist they are and how they really want to do the work, it's easy to get taken in by that and think "oh yeah that sounds good." We *want* to believe they're a good person, and it's no fun to think we are, or could be, sleeping with the enemy. But nothing is worth your life and sanity. Pay attention to if 👏 they're 👏 actually 👏 doing 👏 the 👏 work. 👏 Like I said, they can talk and talk, but look at their actions. How do they treat you and other people? How do they talk about women? Are they self-reflective and aware? Do they care about feminist issues, like abortion, equal pay, anti-racism, household labour equity, are they supportive of you and your dreams? And do they show those things, not just say them?
If you don’t want to have intimate partnerships or relationships you also don’t have to-respectful, loving, supportive friendships are just as important and meaningful (and often undervalued, especially by the patriarchy) but mean you remain much more in control
If you don't want to be in a relationship with someone, you don't have to. The End.
This is so important.
I wish every woman could read this.
Here's where I see a maybe red flag: "...we had many open conversations about difficult topics related to feminism, most initiated by him, to which he remained willing to be reflective and admit his shortcomings with a genuine desire to be a better man and person."
I know a few guys like this. They have these conversations performatively because they like to feel intellectual or like they are becoming better (without real effort or change) or (at the worst) like they are actually educating YOU about these topics. Your description of this relationship reminds me of these guys. Was he having these deep, meaningful conversations with you AS he made these "past missteps?"
Does something about the way he is interacting with you feel performative? Insincere? You might be sensing that under the surface but have no real way to put your finger on what it is or why you feel that way. It's hard to spot. Just some food for thought. This, in addition to these past missteps and your hesitance in general, makes me think you probably don't actually want to be in a relationship with this man.
I had the same feeling.
If you're happy on your own, why go through the rigamorale of being with a man? This is where I have landed and it would take an actual act of God and one in a million guy for me to be willing, simply because I don't need them. I felt like I had to put up with what I could get before because I didn't know how happy I would be without them. So if you're happy without him, why bother?
Yes.