I really like your content, but sometimes it makes me want to cry. I’m so sad that women have been treated like this for so long, and continue to be. I am 64, and I even see it in my adult children’s relationships. It’s going to take a long time and a lot of work for this to change, and every woman who points out this bad behavior by men is brave and courageous, and a great role model.
Mirroring off of, Zawn first I’d say proceed with caution because often times men cannot take with dignity what they dish out.
Also, my curiosity has gotten the best of me because this is quite literally insane so I have a question. What good qualities does he have and do you all share children? In my honest opinion that kind of bullshit is divorce worthy. Personally, I would have all kinds of retorts and some might land ME in jail, for real. How dare he? Honestly, this doesn’t read like he likes you, or any woman for that matter. He should never have the opportunity to smell a vagina much-less get close to one.
Definitely echo proceeding with caution. My STBX used to make disparaging jokes about my ethnicity, my butt, even my leaking nipples when nursing -- and some of these jokes were in front of our kids. The few times I'd make similar minded jokes in the last year of our relationship -- on things like his self professed poor memory, or his own enlightenment -- I'd get treated to stonewalling, terrifying stares, and/or 30 minute long diatribes.
Exercise caution when leaving. A person who can dehumanize you is capable of anything. Many women have even been assaulted or murdered by partners who never even yelled at them before.
I really appreciate this comment -- it's validating, since I still always wrestle with doubts. I was fortunately granted a PPO against him for a year when I did end up having to flee him because he assaulted me -- but I still feel scared most days. Especially because he often accused me, explicitly, of "dehumanizing" him, and I've learned to see how much of whole ethos was projection. The multiple times he used that word scare me more than the actual assault.
You're welcome! Try to gather your belongings with a friend and while he's out of the house for a while. If you can do it without him noticing, pack things up bit by bit, like have a small bag with birth certificates, money, etc (maybe make copies of legal documents?) so you can up and grab it if need be.
Again I think of a Pamela Kearon circa 1960-70’s who was continuously institutionalized. She was abused. Was she falsely pathologized as so many women are? Below are her words. I think she was definitely on to something.
‘Many men engage in sexual intercourse, often extensively, even marry, while yet hating women. These men are called misogynists. Now, there is no shame in being a misogynist. It is a perfectly respectable attitude. Our whole society (including too many of the women in it) hates women. Perhaps we need a Latin or Greek derivative in place of 'man- hating to make the perfect symmetry of the two attitudes more obvious.’
I wholeheartedly agree, but I was wondering if there is any scope here that this "joke" could be an unexamined habit of his, rather than actual disgust over vulvas? Like, he had one guy laugh at it when he was 14 and has just kept the thrill alive ever since? Although, because she has asked him to stop it SHOULD have been examined, but sadly that doesn't mean it has been. Either way it's unacceptable.
Yeah I just thought it might not necessarily translate to him being really disgusted at vulvas. He might not be gay or ace. He might just be awful. I know of other (awful) men who make similar jokes but proudly state their attraction to that smell regardless of similar odours often being considered to be off-putting or undesirable.
It's splitting hairs because it's unacceptable anyway. Good advice as always, Zawn.
Maybe. But once she asked him to stop, that's a different story. I get sometimes people tell jokes that, if taken literally, are sexist, racist, etc, but it's more about the joke than anything, or are told ironically precisely because the person doesn't agree with the content. But she told him to stop.
Dear reader: HE IS DOING IT ON PURPOSE. He knows it upsets you, he literally doesn’t care. The person you have pledged to share your life with is making hurtful comments repeatedly after you told them it’s hurtful to you and not funny. Seriously, if your friend or child told you their partner did that to them, you’d literally go ballistic. Call him out on it every single time. I’d tell him that you’ve told him it’s not funny, it’s hurtful and if you don’t stop, I’m leaving. Then actually leave. I mean, this is a SUPER low bar even for men, but no one has the right to hurt someone over and over again on purpose.
The idea that nem just need to be educated to understand is self defeating. The reader HAS educated this nam by telling him that she doesn’t like the joke, doesn’t think it’s funny and finds it hurtful.
He’s doing it regardless, he’s quite happy to say hurtful things.
I hope the reader has the ability and safety to get away from this nam.
If she makes the joke about him not earning enough money around his friends, she’s at risk of violence. Like he could seriously physically harm her for that. I think she should cut her losses and just leave
I love your advice! They can only “take a joke” when it’s not directed at them, then they really do become whiny children. I told a man on instagram to calm down and smile more, he did not appreciate it 😅
Side note: I love watching drag, and one term they have finally started to phase out is to be “fishy”, apparently it’s what they call the most attractive drag queens (because they look like women? Still not sure why that came about). But yes, obviously gay guys do not like the idea of vulvas, so they sometimes rely on these tropes to convey it. A UK Queen AFAB recently called her male competitors out on it, and they said they had no idea of what it meant. Interesting, but kind of highlights your point about this guy maybe not being straight…
I’ve been wondering if saying men married to women who are like this are truly gay like you’ve said Zawn is homophobic, but some gay men are definitely misogynist so it’s not too far off either
This is so powerful, I wish I could have heard this as a young girl when I first started hearing these “jokes,” not aimed at me specifically, but at all women, as if this were normal. And I wish everyone could get this message now. You’re doing great, important, groundbreaking work.
Speaking of smart arse comments - I’d probably go with a comment about how well goat’s cheese goes with fish, which is a good thing considering his balls probably smell like spoiled dairy.
Zawn, I wish I had read this article 10 years ago when my husband started "joking" about how I look and smell. It bothered me at first, but I still laughed with him (unfortunately, it's taken me a while to realize that I too, was indoctrinated with patriarchy). 13 years into this marriage, I now look back and see how harmful those "jokes" have been to my self esteem. As I get closer and closer to deciding to proceed with a divorce, it's those "jokes" that keep coming to my mind, clear examples of how disrespectful he's actually been over the years.
I have talked to him about how harmful it has been to me. He finally took a moment, seemed to really process what I had said, and actually gave me a true apology. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's going to be too little, too late. The damage is already done.
I really like your content, but sometimes it makes me want to cry. I’m so sad that women have been treated like this for so long, and continue to be. I am 64, and I even see it in my adult children’s relationships. It’s going to take a long time and a lot of work for this to change, and every woman who points out this bad behavior by men is brave and courageous, and a great role model.
Mirroring off of, Zawn first I’d say proceed with caution because often times men cannot take with dignity what they dish out.
Also, my curiosity has gotten the best of me because this is quite literally insane so I have a question. What good qualities does he have and do you all share children? In my honest opinion that kind of bullshit is divorce worthy. Personally, I would have all kinds of retorts and some might land ME in jail, for real. How dare he? Honestly, this doesn’t read like he likes you, or any woman for that matter. He should never have the opportunity to smell a vagina much-less get close to one.
Definitely echo proceeding with caution. My STBX used to make disparaging jokes about my ethnicity, my butt, even my leaking nipples when nursing -- and some of these jokes were in front of our kids. The few times I'd make similar minded jokes in the last year of our relationship -- on things like his self professed poor memory, or his own enlightenment -- I'd get treated to stonewalling, terrifying stares, and/or 30 minute long diatribes.
Exercise caution when leaving. A person who can dehumanize you is capable of anything. Many women have even been assaulted or murdered by partners who never even yelled at them before.
I really appreciate this comment -- it's validating, since I still always wrestle with doubts. I was fortunately granted a PPO against him for a year when I did end up having to flee him because he assaulted me -- but I still feel scared most days. Especially because he often accused me, explicitly, of "dehumanizing" him, and I've learned to see how much of whole ethos was projection. The multiple times he used that word scare me more than the actual assault.
Dehumanizing? LOL! What a flipping hypocrite.
You're welcome! Try to gather your belongings with a friend and while he's out of the house for a while. If you can do it without him noticing, pack things up bit by bit, like have a small bag with birth certificates, money, etc (maybe make copies of legal documents?) so you can up and grab it if need be.
They do. And they're obsessed with dicks and other men, to the point where you're wondering why he doesn't just marry another man since it's legal now
Again I think of a Pamela Kearon circa 1960-70’s who was continuously institutionalized. She was abused. Was she falsely pathologized as so many women are? Below are her words. I think she was definitely on to something.
‘Many men engage in sexual intercourse, often extensively, even marry, while yet hating women. These men are called misogynists. Now, there is no shame in being a misogynist. It is a perfectly respectable attitude. Our whole society (including too many of the women in it) hates women. Perhaps we need a Latin or Greek derivative in place of 'man- hating to make the perfect symmetry of the two attitudes more obvious.’
I wholeheartedly agree, but I was wondering if there is any scope here that this "joke" could be an unexamined habit of his, rather than actual disgust over vulvas? Like, he had one guy laugh at it when he was 14 and has just kept the thrill alive ever since? Although, because she has asked him to stop it SHOULD have been examined, but sadly that doesn't mean it has been. Either way it's unacceptable.
I don't think that explanation holds water. She's asked him to stop. She doesn't think it's funny. It hurts her.
Yeah I just thought it might not necessarily translate to him being really disgusted at vulvas. He might not be gay or ace. He might just be awful. I know of other (awful) men who make similar jokes but proudly state their attraction to that smell regardless of similar odours often being considered to be off-putting or undesirable.
It's splitting hairs because it's unacceptable anyway. Good advice as always, Zawn.
Maybe. But once she asked him to stop, that's a different story. I get sometimes people tell jokes that, if taken literally, are sexist, racist, etc, but it's more about the joke than anything, or are told ironically precisely because the person doesn't agree with the content. But she told him to stop.
Dear reader: HE IS DOING IT ON PURPOSE. He knows it upsets you, he literally doesn’t care. The person you have pledged to share your life with is making hurtful comments repeatedly after you told them it’s hurtful to you and not funny. Seriously, if your friend or child told you their partner did that to them, you’d literally go ballistic. Call him out on it every single time. I’d tell him that you’ve told him it’s not funny, it’s hurtful and if you don’t stop, I’m leaving. Then actually leave. I mean, this is a SUPER low bar even for men, but no one has the right to hurt someone over and over again on purpose.
I would just leave without calling him out. If he's doing it in the first place he's already a shitty person.
The idea that nem just need to be educated to understand is self defeating. The reader HAS educated this nam by telling him that she doesn’t like the joke, doesn’t think it’s funny and finds it hurtful.
He’s doing it regardless, he’s quite happy to say hurtful things.
I hope the reader has the ability and safety to get away from this nam.
If she makes the joke about him not earning enough money around his friends, she’s at risk of violence. Like he could seriously physically harm her for that. I think she should cut her losses and just leave
I love your advice! They can only “take a joke” when it’s not directed at them, then they really do become whiny children. I told a man on instagram to calm down and smile more, he did not appreciate it 😅
Side note: I love watching drag, and one term they have finally started to phase out is to be “fishy”, apparently it’s what they call the most attractive drag queens (because they look like women? Still not sure why that came about). But yes, obviously gay guys do not like the idea of vulvas, so they sometimes rely on these tropes to convey it. A UK Queen AFAB recently called her male competitors out on it, and they said they had no idea of what it meant. Interesting, but kind of highlights your point about this guy maybe not being straight…
I’ve been wondering if saying men married to women who are like this are truly gay like you’ve said Zawn is homophobic, but some gay men are definitely misogynist so it’s not too far off either
I'm not attracted to women and I don't insult women's bodies.
This is so powerful, I wish I could have heard this as a young girl when I first started hearing these “jokes,” not aimed at me specifically, but at all women, as if this were normal. And I wish everyone could get this message now. You’re doing great, important, groundbreaking work.
Speaking of smart arse comments - I’d probably go with a comment about how well goat’s cheese goes with fish, which is a good thing considering his balls probably smell like spoiled dairy.
Zawn, I wish I had read this article 10 years ago when my husband started "joking" about how I look and smell. It bothered me at first, but I still laughed with him (unfortunately, it's taken me a while to realize that I too, was indoctrinated with patriarchy). 13 years into this marriage, I now look back and see how harmful those "jokes" have been to my self esteem. As I get closer and closer to deciding to proceed with a divorce, it's those "jokes" that keep coming to my mind, clear examples of how disrespectful he's actually been over the years.
I have talked to him about how harmful it has been to me. He finally took a moment, seemed to really process what I had said, and actually gave me a true apology. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's going to be too little, too late. The damage is already done.